EP319 - Why Red Flags Matter in Client Selection ft Kat Sale

Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the podcast formerly the PPC Chat Roundup. My name is Anu, the founder of PPC Live, and if you are used to hearing advice from PPC experts about how to ensure that we are keeping up with the ever changing landscape. Don't worry, you are still in the right place. But instead of me relaying what the PPC experts are saying, I'm going to be bringing the PPC experts to you every week.

I'm gonna be speaking to a different PPC expert about their biggest F up, but not just that. Also, how they've turned things around, what learnings they've taken out from it. We're gonna be sharing about disappointments. Who has been supportive along the way? What has surprised them and much more? Today we have the Fantastic Cat Sale, who, alongside with her agency, house of Performance, have been a fantastic supporter of PPC Live and has sponsored some past events.

We are gonna be talking about a pass fail that she experienced with a client, advice that she gave that wasn't listened to, what the outcome of that was, and just how it has just made her. Think about trusting herself more, being more aware of red flags when she sees them and calling them out. So yeah, let's hear more from Kat.  📍  📍 

Hello Kat, welcome to PPC Live The Podcast.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Its a delight. So for those who don't know, Kat Sale is the co-founder of House of Performance, a brilliant supporter of PPC Live. They were one of the first to support us and sponsor us. They are a UK based performance marketing consultancy that specializes in helping ambitious brands maximize their return on investment through paid media channels such as PPC, paid social display, and remarketing campaigns. Now beyond her consultancy work, Kat is an active thought leader in the performance marketing space, especially on LinkedIn, and she has shared her expertise on platforms like the Marketing Meetup, where she discussed strategies for successful PPC campaigns, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's product.

Deeply in Marks eat the dog food. That is a phrase that she's used on multiple occasions. Kat also has appeared on the PPC Mastery Podcast, where she discussed building an agency that people enjoy working at, highlighting the importance of company culture and adaptability in today's marketing landscape. What she likes to do for fun. Obstacle courses, she says, and we should be seeing her on the gladiators very soon. She also has two boys who keep her very, very busy. That made her laugh. But yeah. Let's go back to that phrase, Kat - eat the dog food. What is that about?

So Um, a long time ago, a mentor taught me this phrase, and it basically means if you're gonna work with a client or on a specific business,

you need to eat the dog food, AKA, test the product, product,

the thing that they sell, understand it inside out. So for example, we recently started working with Biscuiteers -

So that's an easy one.

They sell luxury biscuits. So the first thing I did was went on their website and ordered some biscuits to eat to test, you know?

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So really actually experience

the product. Try try as much You have to, how can you market something properly if you don't fully? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that actually reminds me of, of a friend, this lady called Li Jun Hou, she, we wrote an article recently about being curious, being curious is your biggest, you know, superpower about being a marketer. And because she wanted, she was trying to gain a client who owned yachts. She actually took, put herself through a training to learn how to

operate a yatch and I was like, wow, that is properly eating the dog food, yeah. That really is

yeah, exactly. I, I think it's so important and it's so overlooked. So yeah. As much as we, as much as we realistically can we eat the dog food.

Absolutely. And yeah, thank you for, taking time out of your holiday. It looks like you're having a, a great time. Thank for those who are just listening to this, this, I'm just kidding with Kat. She is, that she is, in the middle of her workday, but she's very much taken advantage of the brilliant weather we are having here in the uk, which doesn't happen often, so I totally empathize with her that, yeah, as much as you can, do some working in the sun. Take it. Take it. why not.

Right. Okay. Let's not keep our listeners waiting much longer. They, you know, we know what are this post podcast is about. We're talking about f-ups with experience, learnings we've had from it, how we've, we've managed to still lead a life of success leader, the carreer of success despite this issue.

So, Kat  what f-up do you want to share with us today?

I have so many. So I wanna talk about, uh, when the business was quite new. House Of Performance has only been going a year and a bit, and

we started working with a gifting company. They did gift experiences and physical gifts, physical gig, and we were consulting with them

with and the long and short of it was was wanted to launch for one of their peaks, which was Father's Day, and their team spent £40,000 with zero sales.

That's the main f fuck up. We then didn't get our contract paid, so we lost £12,500 in fees. Um, and the contract ended. It was bad. A lot of learnings.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's already a big, a big heavy, like 40,000 pounds was spent over what 

period of time ? Three days. Over three days. Oh, wow. Okay. Let's, let's, I promise it wasn't my advice. I promise I can explain. Okay. Right. Get to the, let's get to the explanation of Okay. of it. What, what caused it? What caused this issue?

So the client, the business was run very hands-on by founder, CEO, and he very much wanted to go big for Father's Day. He had two brands.

One was sort of tried and tested on Father's Day, a secondary brand They had  not

been in, this is all in PPC by the way. They'd not been in the auction for Father's Day for this brand, and he wanted to go big on it.

So he said, right, help my team learn how to build campaigns and start entering the auction for all things Father's Day gifting.

So we taught them how to build campaigns. Very new junior team as well. Yeah.

And then it was the Fri. It was a Friday, about two, maybe three weeks before Father's Day, I think three weeks.

And And we don't launch on a Friday. Unless you're gonna check it on a Saturday. Never. No, no, no. CEO said we need to go live.

Okay. The next thing was We wouldn't recommend you launch it in Broad Match.

We recommend you launch it in Exact, and if it performs well, we'll then add some phrase and then we'll add some broad, if it's good. Naaah

Broad match will be fine. We're gonna launch in broad. match Oh,

Okay. Um, up to you, it's your, your account. Um, start with a conservative budget because, you know, we dunno how this gonna perform.

No. We're gonna put 500 a day on all of these campaigns. They had loads of campaigns they've built out.

oh my

It was a recipe for disaster, but we weren't running it. We were consulting, right? Because half of what we do is consulting and guiding others, so all we could do is send an email explaining what we'd already said. These are the risks.

Go for it. So we did and they did and off we went on the weekend, try not to worry about it.

I didn't log in at the weekend because I'm really anti that unless you have to. Like I'm very anti, it's not my account. And then on the Monday, nine o'clock, my phone rings and it's the CEO and he says,

You've spent £40,000 and we haven't had one sale. And I was like, well, we didn't, and we advised all of this, but you kind of made them and you put the pressure on

And um, um, yeah.

It was bad. It was really bad. Really bad. That is, that is really annoying. I think there's, there's a lesson to be learned of, like, I don't even think the mistake was the spend, the mistake was maybe the client choice.

Yeah. Because, you know, a client that is not gonna listen to you.

A client Yeah, Is just not paying attention to, anything that  you're saying yeah,

You know? Yeah, that's, and which, which yeah. you It.

who you're gonna work with until it begins and then you're like, oh, okay. Bad. You know? Mistake. Let's, let's, were there any signs before like this campaign that they were such a client?

Yeah, there was a little bit, so when we went into, we had a couple of meetings, you know, pitch stage and the CEO would talk really badly

about his team. And I think that's a [red] flag sign because if they're your team, you should back them and you should rate them and build, especially to an external company. We're we're just a consultancy.

So that was, So in hindsight, that was a flag. We didn't really pay attention to it at the time, but that is a flag. I think if you are, if you don't back your own team, you certainly, you're not gonna back us, are you? Because we're external.

yeah. Um, and He was very pushy with, you know, we need this, We need this,

but we, I've had clients like that before, but not but not with the same, so

I wouldn't say there's any other major bags. was okay. All right. And, um, so what was your first reaction?

You get this call from this kind of like on uh, that 9:00 AM morning. What was your, what was your instinct, you know, to do, to say.

Um, so I said, well, let me go and have a look at what's happened and come back to you with like, my diagnosis of that. Even though I sort of already knew. I was like, I'm gonna go and have a look and really see it because I want, you know, I wanna check that even the, the number of amount of spend was accurate and stuff.

Uh, so that was my first reaction. My second reaction was phone Emma, my business partner and say, oh, this has happened.

My physical reaction was I needed to run

to the toilet. Because I have a very close link with my

gut to my brain Oh Yeah. I can laugh about it now, and I was at home, so it's fine. But that is, that is what happens, you know, if you're put under severe stress,

Yeah, yeah. Your body reacts. Your body knows.

it does. It does. And I do not ignore that. I do not ignore that if that is happening. You know, like I know that need to take some time out, whatever.

Anyway, so yeah, so then I went and looked at the campaigns and I was like.

As expected you'd launch this on something that had never been tested it with very high bids, you know, no caps like.

So I just emailed saying, look, this is what happened as basically, I didn't say it as expected, but I said, look, we put these warnings in and they were all ignored.

Yeah. Yeah. yeah, painful. Yeah. So give us your, your biggest learning. So like your top three learnings from, what would you have done 

differently. Yeah. I think think first warning about the, you know, not being kind about his own team, not speaking highly of his own team,

team, I probably would've said something early on before we really started working together and said, well, and said,

do you rate your team because you're asking us to train them.

So do you think they can get there there? not? Yeah.

Have a conversation about that? And then depending on the response, potentially not take on the contracts. Yeah,

Um, because really we were kind of set up to fail a little bit.

yeah. Um, so definitely that. And then I think I could have sent an extra warning email about the launching gone higher, made sure he was more aware, but I don't think that would've made any difference.

no. And then the, the other learning is don't take things to heart so much because of course me and Emma took that so personally, especially because the business was very young then. And actually, you know, now I can reflect and think, well we really did do everything we could. So actually we shouldn't take any blame or any personal thing.

And obviously we both quite upset about that yeah.

So yeah, that. Yeah, that would be easy next time. . Working with some clients, it, it is just what it is. As, as,

painful as it is, as you know 'cause you think of how you won the client or even how, you know,

Yeah. all the things that you did

Yeah. that felt like, you know, you should have, it should have been, it might be maybe someone that, a friend that recommended to you, this client.

So you wanna make sure you 

trust them Ironically it was so it was a, it was recommended by a friend. So, and he had had no issues with him actually. But then what, now I think about it in the pitch, there was another warning sign because he'd been through three other agencies in like two years and he'd said, oh, you know, these were rubbish 'cause blah, blah.

And I thought, oh, they're not all, not all agencies are rubbish. So,

No, know, maybe you are the problem.

Yeah. Yeah. That is some something that as much as I am, I'm busy writing all of my, my thoughts and processes about how the paid search industry should be working. I love like reading from loads of other experts as well. And a recurring, a recurring thought process is that is people will say that if they've got a client it's like, oh yeah, my last four agencies in the last four months were really bad.

Big red flag. Yeah. That's a  red flag Yes. Like, Exactly why have you needed to change so much? Yeah,

Yeah, so much, so quickly. I'm sure yeah, you know, your USP and your ways that you are different and maybe better than other agencies, but. Look. Yeah. Someone that cannot find out, find the right, agency like so many times, I mean, yeah.

gotta be careful Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. There's something about with withholding relationships, like

like if you can't have a longstanding relationship at work, there's a problem, right? Yeah.

It's like I, feel like we can, we can use the analogy of even like when you're finding like the right partner or Right boyfriend

Yeah. or something. If a dude just broke up from a relationship two weeks ago, you're like, dude, I'm the rebound. This is, this is not

Yeah. sure, make sure you're not the rebound

Agency Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna be definitely

Don't be the rebound agency. Or yes.

if a guy comes and he's like, oh yeah, I've had three girlfriends in the last month and they just can't handle me.

Red flag. Yeah, yeah. Run, run away. Exactly. Run, yeah, exactly. we'd say that 

Exactly. or our bestfriends Yeah, you're right. we should think about that when it  comes to choosing clients as well. For sure.

yes.

another, another part of the story that I hope is not too painful for you, that I feel that really I would love to also talk about is that,, you know, you lost fees of, like you said, about 12 grand or

Yeah. I Yeah. So that was bad. So he, you know, then it all transpired and he said, well, you know, I don't wanna work with you anymore. And we were like, well, we don't really wanna work with you either. So that works.

And he then just. he ghosted us and didn't pay our consultancy invoice. And my learning on that is we spent far too long deliberating about and chasing and are we gonna get it?

And, and our mentor Mark at the time was like you should just write that money off because

You, you send, you do the legal chase and stuff, but in reality you are, what are you not doing? 'cause you're constantly talking and worrying about it. And he's, he was right because, you know, it was then getting in the way of other pitches and other work.

And that is, you know, for good clients. So having like a boundary of like, you know, if something's going really badly or you can't make it work or, or someone's not gonna pay, there's a cutoff time and after say whatever that is, two weeks a month, you're done. There's no more time to be had on that move on because it would've cost us more to keep on and on about it.

So I think that was a good learning that we got early on. Um, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

mean, is, have you, um, kicked into any like, prepayments of We haven't. we have like an we've, so if it's consultancy, we invoice upfront, but they don't have to, they have 30 days to pay.

as such. Um, to be honest, it's really rare. It is actually really rare. It's just one of the biggest examples I have. Um, yeah, it's just one of those, it's just part of it. It's rare, it's part of this Sometimes. Yeah. if someone is  going through

Yeah. this process right now, like really they've, they, they're the ones that've just gotten a client a call from a client saying that you spend so much money and it was based on a, you, they, they gave the client the advice.

And the advice was  not listened

Yeah.

to all of that. Someone is going through this project. They've got their, they're in the toilet seat right now. Their guts are coming out and they're really scared. What will you tell them? Would you

I mean, I would say, well, first of all they can ring me. Anyone in that scenario, happy to have a chat because you do feel better if you speak to someone else about it. But also I would say it's not life or death. We are not heart surgeons, it's just advertising. And if you've done your best and you can show that you've done your best, or even if you have made a mistake,

Show that you're willing to, You know, show remorse and fix it. fix it. There's nothing else to do yeah.

Know what I mean? Like .yeah. Absolutely.

That's a great story you've shared with us. And, , we're gonna come around now to talking about just our industry as a whole and how people deal with mistakes and whether we hear enough about it. The PPC industry, do you feel like you, you hear, hear enough about, talking about failures?

I think it's getting better, like especially from this year, seeing it more and more. I think like when I was learning, when I was in my twenties learning PPC, I often felt like I was the stupidest one in the agency, or I was the only one making a mistake and

things were hushed up and it would all be done in meeting rooms quietly.

Now. People like us are more open. And I also think that now the newer generations coming up are more open as well because they're mirroring that behavior, which is great. So, I mean, sometimes likely in our agency we'll have a team meeting and if there's been a mistake, we might

we say to that person that if you wanna talk about it, happy for you to talk to the whole team about it and it.

everyone will be kind and give their condolences. It's not a problem to talk about it Yeah. Good.

The only way we can change it is by sharing stuff. I, I don't want it to look like I'm saying it. You know, everyone should make mistakes and it's fine, but it's more like mistakes do happen.

You can put all the process you like in place and that will reduce it, but sometimes stuff just happens and

Yeah.

it's not worth anyone's mental health really over it.

No. You want people to care but you don't want people to get super anxious about it really. No, absolutely. something that was, um, I, I really liked that was shared in a previous episode was that you've not made a mistake, you've probably not tested enough things

Yes. Yeah.

Hundred percent. Yes. Because So, You remember it more, it stays with you. And, and I've said all, all the mistakes I've talked about publicly, I've shared them with my team over and over again, but sometimes they just need to make their own mistakes

To learn. You know? Everybody does Um, yeah. That is, that is part of it, definitely in every job.

Yeah, it is. Is there a safe way you'd say to fail, like in digital marketing or like, or in your, in your agency, that, that may managers or tip for like managers to, you know, of, how to get digital 

marketers Yeah, Not to be  too scared about failing.

That's a good question. So as a leader, sharing your own failings opens that door to let people feel it's okay to do that. So definitely that. And then it's how you deal with mistakes and failings, right? So, yeah,

you know, we had a few months ago where someone, like someone basically just set all countries instead just UK. It didn't spend that much but it was still wrong. So it's what you do when that comes out. So

Yeah. what we do is we say, oh look, you know, it's a shame that happened. What have you learned?

Usually learn something learn and then And can you tell the client, tell 'em straight away,

Make it open. Don't try and hide stuff. 'cause it probably will come out and then it'll be much worse.

Whereas if you say to a client, uh, you know, we left this setting on and in 24hrs it spent like £50 in other markets other than UK.

There is no client that is gonna really have a massive issue with that. They're gonna say, thank you for your honesty, move on, don't care. Whereas if you leave it and then stuff comes out, they then don't trust you. That is so much worse. So I think, I mean, it's just all about comms, isn't it really. Having everything open.

yes, absolutely. It comes as the biggest thing, like if you do, the one that speaks about the issue, come up with a plan. You already have a plan. You know the why of what happened, come up plan how, how to bring it back. Exactly. You can win most clients over,

Yeah. not all, and some clients, they're not worth winning

Not. we've spoken about. So, no. Know the difference. Know the difference and yeah, know when to, cut losses. Um. So another question I want to come to, because we are very much in the era of ai, whether we like it or not, and I know people just, just wanna hear, especially with like lately, I dunno when people are gonna listen to this.

You know, in the last couple of weeks there have been loads of changes about Performance Max and,

Yeah. channel reporting more negatives and all of that. And, um, even like with AI Max, the new search feature that is, that is gonna be coming out soon. AI can be a very positive force.

I'm pro ai, but I also think that we sometimes use it wrong, , in a lot of ways

Yeah. Yeah. What is like your, the biggest f-up or biggest mistake in the, in the ways that people approach ai that you've, you've experienced with like clients especially Oh, especially with in HoP

uh, that is an interesting one. I know like some people use it

To, you know, write all their ads now, and I think that is fine, but I think it's an F up to not use your brain. Because what's gonna happen long term? So what's gonna happen long term is all the ads are gonna look the same, and no one's gonna know how to write ads.

yeah. So I think people need to use their brain with ai.

Yeah. I mean, I, because I use it, I would say I'm a slightly later adopter, like I'm using it, but I'm not like a must.

But I, I use it, but I absolutely will go over what it is giving me and edit the hell outta it. Because if you, your brain is a muscle, and if you're not using it, it'll go and it, you know, at some point you might say you want to go for another job and you're in a job interview

And there's a, and there's a written part of the exam exam. and you can't use ai.

And you can't use ai. Yeah, If you, if you, I guess what I'm saying is don't let it become a crutch.

Yeah. It's a support, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

yeah. So, Um, yeah. So yeah, probably the biggest F up is just like losing your brain for it.

Yeah, losing your brain, like be the strategist, be the person that is still doing the thinking, and let it help organise your thoughts

Exactly. And also, no, no one's gonna get paid a high salary

cause they can use AI well not in the end

Why, why would anyone hire you to be lazy? Um, yeah. I used to call myself sometimes, oh, I'm a bit lazy because I just wanna find the fastest way to do things. But I call them more, actually more efficient. Like, I'll

Yeah, exactly. That's different. Exactly. Yes, it is different. And using it for ideas and using it to reduce time, research and stuff. Amazing. It's great. Why wouldn't you? But I just think if you're fully using it to write, you see it on LinkedIn all time.

Oh, People writing posts that just stink of ChatGPT and you just think,

yeah, what's the point? What is the point? yeah. Yeah.

comments for me? For me it is like, oh, people try to make it like they're engaging with the comments. your posts, with all the comments.

can't, deleting stuff. I'm literally like. yes, If I have time. If I have time. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. annoying. Yes. Yeah. annoying. Yeah.

Although, Yeah, you see it when you reply as well. If you like, you reply to a clearly an AI comment and you're like, oh, that sounds great. Tell me more. And then they can't because they haven't got a brain. I don't know more. And maybe I should ask ChatGPT what it meant and

Yeah. It just Yeah. This is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. I saw a job title 'cause going to the whole, will people pay you for using ai?

And there's not a job title is on LinkedIn of being an AI sports editor. I'm like, what do you mean AI sports What does that mean? Yeah, interesting. like it's Oh my goodness. Amazing. yeah, companies themselves hiring process themselves, they're, I think they're also part of the problem inside of Yeah. what, what they make it clear that's important.

You need to be an AI engineer. What's an AI engineer Yeah. Yeah. What does that mean? But they don't, you know, people hiring managers just don't know do they? No.

Scary world. it really is. It really is. Kat, this has been a fantastic conversation. I, you know, I love chatting with you. We meet at like, award shows or like, you know,

Always and, pleasure. we'll, we'll just, just, just chat away. Um, but before you go, last question, that is more of a fun one. If your PPC career, if your PPC career were a movie, what would be the title? You

Um, yeah, I should have, I should have, uh, Uh, I dunno. I was gonna say something about prepare, failing to prepare. Can't think now. Um, turbulent times in digital.

in digital. Turbulent times in digital. Wow. That's ominous. Like, oh God. Are you okay? Do should we have a look at

I'm okay. I'm hanging in there. I'm hanging in there. But it's definitely a rollercoaster.

Yeah. Yeah. It is very much a rollercoaster in this industry at the moment. It sure is. Well, on that note,

Yeah.so much Kat. Where can people find you if they wanna see some of your, you know, fantastic musings about Paid Search

Um, well, LinkedIn's where I'm most vocal, I like to. I like to shout about the good and the bad. I see. So you can look up on LinkedIn or you can go on my website. House performance. Absolutely. Lovely. Thank you so much for that Kat. No problem, Thanks. Kat

 Thank you so much, Kat, for sharing that very honest and transparent experience. It's always nerve wracking when you have to remember how much money. You lost from, you know, doing some work with a client, whether it was the ad spend itself or what you could have actually earned from that money. Because whatever the results of working with a client, if you're putting work into it, you deserve to be paid for that.

'cause they're paying for your effort, they're paying for your intelligence, not just for the results. So guys, be wary out there and watch out for those red flags so that you don't come across a client who's gonna. Make you regret taking them on. Yeah. So for all information and the full transcript for that episode, go to podcast PPC Live.

Of course, I've also got to update you on what's going on on PPC Live. We have the next event happening on June the 26th in Leeds. For those up north who want to share, want to meet with your community, wanna meet with all the other page advertisers who are within walking distance of you. Yeah. Please come to this event.

Tickets are live. On PPC Live and their early bird sales there going on. And before I leave you, I'm also delighted to share that I'm taking on coaching clients. So paid search coaching services is what I'm offering on an hourly basis block. So yeah, if you just go to the marketing annual.com, you can book some time so that I can help you reignite your passion and your confidence in paid search.

So yeah, I hope you've enjoyed that show and I look forward to bringing you more PPC F-ups and triumphs next week. Bye.