EP260 - The Business of PPC

0:00 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the PPC chat roundup. In today's episode, we have the amazing Julie Bichini leading us again on a topic of the business of PPC. So this is where we answer questions around what's it like working in PPC, how long we've been doing there, how do we do contracts and agreements, what do we find challenging talking about with clients, dealing with clients, you know any of our business questions and and so forth. So we've got five questions that we go through today. And yeah, it's an interesting chat from people who have been in this industry for a long time, including myself. I can't believe it's been as long as I've been in it. So yeah, I would give it away. You're going to have to listen after the the intro to to hear how long we've been in this industry, Is there many, many veterans in this industry who give their advice on how to keep going on in this industry, how to have longevity in this industry.

0:57 So yeah, I hope you listen and join Lun. All right. Hello and a warm welcome to this week's episode of the PPC Chat Roundup, a podcast where I round up the usually Twitter discussion that happens on Tuesdays at 5:00 PM GMT. I'm your host Anu and I'm recording from my studio here in London, UK and I use this platform to share not just expert but also my ideas and considered best practices about paid media and the direction the digital industry is going in. So if you wanna keep up to date with my tips and tricks in the industry and get the latest on the podcast that has been called your go to.

1:40 If you don't make it to the PPC chat, live discussions and even if you do then like follow, share and retweet or reshare or repost on Twitter and threads with my handle the marketing annu. Or join us on our LinkedIn group which is the PPC chat roundup. Or if you're on Instagram, you can check us out at PPC chat on this call roundup to get quotes and snippets from our previous episodes. So, yeah, we have Julie taken us on a great topic of the business of PPC and you might have gotten a few clues from my intro, from some stuff that I what I've just said here right after the intro music as to the the the feelings that we're having towards Twitter at the moment. So you know I said usually the Twitter discussion, why that specifically?

2:29 Because today we had the discussion on Slack. So yeah, we we tested that out. It was amazing, You know, the all the questions were written out and all the answers were put in threads of that question. So I think that was a great method of doing it. And yes, I'm on threads because Twitter is becoming a bit of a bum site. I feel it's just getting all crazy. There was a new branding. It's not a cold X, not even sure my brain cannot even get my head around that. So you'll probably be hearing more about my podcast episode on threads on Twitter. A little bit on Twitter, if they they still allow it for as much as the for as long as the PPC community is still on there, on LinkedIn as usual for my podcast Friday post and as well elsewhere on Instagram as I mentioned on there as well. We're also on Facebook, so check us out on there. So yeah, enough of the rambling.

3:24 Let's see how this Slack conversation went before we Julie goes into the questions she reads out saying that, yeah, this chat is intended for PPC professionals of all levels, and if you have something you want to share, please do. We are a friendly and supportive community. Please don't be afraid to participate. So even though we've got about 457 people in this Slack channel specifically, it's only like a handful of of people that do join the chat. And we we're welcoming everybody that just wants to lurk around or people who just want to listen to the podcast. You are very, very welcome. And thank you for listening to another episode as we journey into this new world of Slack chat.

4:07 Slack chat, could that be a new phrase instead of Twitter chat is a Slack chat. Let's get into our questions. So question 1, Julie asks how long have you been working in PPC and are you or have you been agency in House of consultant freelancer? Julia Vice herself says 15 years agency life is the PPC person. So yeah, agency life as the PPC person for her. I've also been close to 15 years now. I've done all of the above. So I have been in house agency tech company now freelancer. I've done it all I feel Julie goes I've been working in PPC since literally the beginning and I'm a consultant and always have been. Melissa McKee goes, yeah I'm doing it with a 121 years since 2002.

4:53 I started in inhouse and did that for five years. Fraser Andrews goes been working in PPC for eight years predominantly agency side. I did have a brief stint in higher education marketing for UK Uni, but discovered it definitely wasn't for me, Michelle Yeager says. Technically eight years OMG, first three at Google as an account manager and then past five as a solar consultant. I attempted a few other things on the side. Wine making grad school interesting and this has been the bulk of my income for the past five years. Gil Gilner goes, yeah, marketing since 2008. PPC specifically. Only since 2016 I was inhouse director of special projects a KA marketing Jack of all trades.

5:34 Travis Bare shell responds saying, yeah, I've been in PPC for about 10 years, mostly agency side and consulting for the past five years. Started across all digital channels, social search, display, video, audio and now specialized predominantly in SEM&SCEO. Dave Gallegos goes there. I'm in the 20 plus camp PBC affiliate to start later agency and in house Dan Patterson goes I started an SEO then in 2010 moved in house and took over PPC display and affiliates as well. And yeah Ashton Cargo's been in the agency and consulting life for five years not always PPC. And yeah Julie then answers Dan Patterson who mentioned his stint with starting with SEO. Julie goes I did SEO back in the beginning to you know when you could make a decent title tag and get on page one of Google. Julie goes as well same.

6:26 So Julia Vice even saying SEO writer to PPC Dan Patterson's gag goes Back in the good old days I set up a stupid little WordPress site and was beating out major banks for sometimes nice one. Fraze Andrews goes. Yeah I did six months of PPC and SEO work in my first agency and I cannot stress enough how beneficial even having the smallest level of SEO knowledge has helped. I don't think I ever really bought into the whole SEO versus PPC thing. I am so glad to hear that and even I did a chat with Viaduct Jen earlier on today about our SEO and PPC can work well together and the benefits of both and Fraser Goes are we all SEO converts. Melissa goes not me being in PPC from the beginning and Gil Gilner says I did almost exclusively SEO for the first few years as well. I also did SEO in the first first few months of my career, but it was more linked building and it was very boring and salesy.

7:21 So I got out of there quick and glad that I landed in PPC. Fraser Andrews goes, I couldn't call myself a convert. I literally fell into a CEO but was always interested in PPC because of the data. Yeah and Dave Semperon says I'm I I just joined the channel. I've been doing PPC for 14 years River goes. I've been in PPC for over 15 years now and have been all of the above. Agency inhouse consultancy freelance big little like me Dave Gallegos goes random ad I hate when people hate on domainers. I feel like they are cure people too like Seo's and PPCRS. That's interesting, the tertiary goes. I've been in marketing since 2019, so quite young. I was a freelancer before, a full stock developer, automation developer for funnel marketing.

8:07 I did that for seven years before I go into PPC. Now the Hopkins goes 15 years and I've done it all in house. Software agency. I'm a SAS girl at heart, but I value my other experiences as well. Jillian Phillips as well. I've been in PPC for five years doing Brown. I've been in PPC since for 17 years since I got started. Been 17 years even since I got started the last seven years. Running an agency. So it's a very good agency. Take some risks.com, check them out. Robert Brady, PPC since 2006. Agency and consulting mostly with a small in house stint at the beginning. Austin Dillman in house from 2006 to 2019. Starting my consulting business in March 2019 and never looked back.

8:52 And those are answers for question one and look at all the experience shared then. This is why this is such an amazing group to follow and to to hear what they have to say on things. So we go to question 2. Julie asks, let's start with contracts or agreements. Do you currently use contracts or agreements with your clients? If not, why not? Julia, VICE, yes. Oh heck here. And we have a whole legal team to help us with it. Julie goes, yeah, absolutely, 100% of the time, yes. Gil Gilner goes, yes. But usually clients have counsel that develop their contracts and we have to adapt. Melissa 100% Yes, very different at a small agency versus the whole code though.

9:32 And Michelle Yeager goes, yes I do, Mostly for legal reasons by. But practically so far it's been the best way for me to try to clarify the scope from the beginning as an attempt to avoid massive scope creep. I think it has helped, but I'm still majorly struggling with boundaries, scope creep, knowing when to say no. As a consultant, I find myself in a lot of Gray areas, which I think might be more of a me problem and Gil Gillner goes. In my experience, the bigger clients have bigger requirements is a hassle, but I guess it pays off in the end. Most of our smaller clients just do a a boilerplate sort of thing. However, a lot of our clients are foreign, so the contracts are questionably enforceable either way.

10:16 I say yeah, currently no, but even when I was freelance, I dealt with contracting agencies. So agencies that dual let me know about agent digital marketing agencies that are looking for people to hire on a freelance basis. And so they dealt with the contracts and yeah, I just had to invoice every month and it was always done through the agency and I'll be paid at Friday of every week. Well every Friday. So he was ah, I missed that. But yeah, trying to find clients was also a tough started becoming a bit tough. So yeah, didn't want to do that and some clients will delay payment which is annoying. But no that's when I wasn't using the agency.

10:57 So yeah different experiences Travis. Responsing agreement with periodic Sow's and change orders. Most clients have legal that legal that modifies the MSA. That's an MSA as needed and Sow's and CEO's are rarely touched, only signed. Julie goes. Agreements or contracts both cover your butt and also clearly layout expectations and terms when done properly. Julia Weisko's contracts and Sow's are so important. Never word it vaguely, but clear about what is included. Yes, I'm in a discussion over this right now. Nitish goes, yes, we are using contracts with every client shared some very helpful tips regarding contracts as in Julie. Julie Bichini shared very helpful tips regarding contracts over Foxwall PPC discussion last week. Thanks for that.

11:44 Julie goes, I have had to sue a client, so trust me when I say read all contracts and be sure what is in them. Oh my God, read your contracts, read, read, read the contract. It's so annoying with clients who are going, Oh yeah, you tricked us into a new term. No we didn't. If you read your contract, we're following exactly what the term period is and what the rules of the term of a current contract is. And then Julia Vice goes, yeah, we are essentially at 150% on hours due to reasons, but 50% on revenue from the pitch. And now they want more stuff that is technically in scope, says Madams.

12:25 And all clients everywhere. You cannot have what's in the SOW's if you consistently ask for more than we agreed to deliver. Julie also says, I also let me say here that if a client is ever giving you grief about signing a contract, take that as a major red flag. Absolutely. If they are worried about a particular aspect of the language, discuss it. I always stress that contracts protect both parties, as the scope of work, price and other details are all clearly defined and agreed to by both parties. Now, Hopkins responds, saying contracts are safeguards for both the clients and us. 10,000 percent, 100,000% even they are there.

13:09 I will say I shifted my perspective from six months or an annual to month to month. This is in large part due to how campaigns types have shifted. Google Now responsing We are month to month for the vast majority of our clients as well. Some are annual duly responsing. I use a hybrid model Nava with a commitment of three months after the discovery strategy initial implementation part is complete and then month to month after that phrase. Andrews response saying super interesting around SOW and good and bad clients. Bit of a plug, but Kirk Williams of course stop the scale outlines. So Kirk's book Stop the Scale outlines really well. Some practical approaches to stop scope of work getting out of hand?

13:56 Absolutely, Julia. Vice responsing, we stick to annual with 30 day out clauses on both sides. The difference comes down to retainer plus percentage or hourly. There are good and bad versions of each. We use an initial three month contract and after that it's transitioned to monthly and Navagos as well saying I think the other factor is whether we're percentage of spend or flat rate lead or management fee. I find that clients who go lead based or performance based need more timelines in place in the contract because they get temperamental general management. There tends to be more trust doing Brown responsing. We have a proposal SOW's and contracts as one doc. We use Proposify to get everything digital digitally signed.

14:47 Been using it since 2019 and it works well for clients of all sizes. Julian Phillips says they are my most lucrative contracts so far have been verbal, but I have much to learn about this stuff. His contracts have been verbal. Oh, interesting. Curious to see what others have been doing. Well, we've listed it all out there for you Julian, and then Brown says I know some who don't use one. Those few times clients questions what we did or didn't do. And I just pointed to the proposal sow a couple years ago. One client wanted to shove the contract terms in our face even when they didn't read it. Then two weeks claim they are unsure that if we did something because unsure of the very contract they had access to. You cannot make this stuff up.

15:31 Better to get it in writing. As Julie Bichini said, not wanting to sign one is a big red flag. Have good agencies. Peeps are not pieces. You can just change out and everything will be fine. Eric, how can responsing I tend to work with smaller, more personal businesses with major contract legalese isn't what either party cares for. Sure, it exposes me to some more risk, but from a legal standpoint, agreement emails with terms are legally binding, just not as airtight. Robert Brady says I always have a contract or agreement in place signed by both parties helps to clarify the payment terms and scope. It's a rolling month to month so I'm not locking anything into a long term deal.

16:17 So an Austin Dillman goes, every client gets an NDA, MSA and SOW MSA. We need a new acronym fill for that one and we simply go on to question three, saying is there anything in your contract that is there because you learned something the hard way? If so, what is it? So what have people learned the hard way and decided to put in interesting fact here that I learned. I think it was doing my Rd. test or Rd. driving test or something like that. The lessons I was taking. One of my instructors said that some signs, like the signs of like, you know, slow down. You're about to go to an area that you can't see around the bend and there's a sign of like a boomerang shaped sign kind of thing telling you to slow down.

17:06 Those kind of signs came into place after an accident happened, so on some roads. So they don't just put it everywhere, they put it after an accident happened. So it just reminds me of that because obviously you're asking the question of what have you put in place after an accident has happened. So Melissa McKee kicks us off saying I learned to spell out the exact meeting and reporting cadence. Otherwise your smallest client, smallest clients will demand the biggest chunk of your time always. It's the smallest, the ones that that that pay the least that will demand the most honesty never Hopkins goes account to build fees. I used to build campaigns as part of the core engagement, but I found that folks who pay for the build are more invested and buy into the process more than those who get it for free.

17:54 Julie Vice responsing? Yes, actually, but it's a pretty corporate example. We need credit protection ends for clients because we buy all media and then bill it plus fees. If they are not creditworthy, all platforms have to bill them directly. Delivers response in response to Nava Hawkins saying yes, those build fees need to be identified and built separately. Travis responds, saying the two biggest things I've learned are one clause that indicates all work product is the property of client campaigns, payment profiles, data research. Yes, two clause that mandates that work product may be used with approval in final form to promote my business.

18:36 So case studies that kind of thing. The former satisfies clients that they own the work, plain and simple. They pay and XYZ output is theirs. The latter allows for self promotion, earning future work and creates A symbiosis that's healthy in my experience. You'll go now respond saying no. In our experience we have found that we are better served by pre qualifying clients than spending too much time enforcing things. Of course things always slip through the cracks, but we try to keep things as open and easy as possible. Since we're month to month with the vast majority of clients, we have never had issues. Granted, most of our clients are smaller, think less than $2,000,000 per year of of spend, so they are usually pretty flexible with things.

19:24 Almost everything is in writing in some way or the other. However, phrase Andrew's responsing normally things like 3 month clause. If things aren't working well from the offset, it allows both parties to leave and typically is a good way to keep things relatively amicable. Michelle responds in I include call cadence, and also expectations around conversion, tracking, troubleshooting, et cetera. Julia Vice responds in I'm Jealous and That's here, and she's jealous of Travis saying specific brand permission needed for every blog post, awards submission, and conference. So yeah, especially for the close to that Travis mentioned in terms of being able to use the work that he's things that he's worked on for you know, promotion purposes for examples, response saying, yeah, pre qualification is something that nowhere near enough agencies are doing but totally should never goes pre qualify stress free equals pre qualify equals to stress free contracts.

20:24 Julie goes level of communication that is included. We have all had a client who wants to e-mail, talk, etcetera way too much for what they're paying. My working hours and time zone and exclusion section about what is not included. Oh, she continues. And what is an actual emergency and how different types are handled as such as one did my work caused the emergency, two did the platform caused the emergency, three did the client caused the emergency. Melissa goes that's part of the problem with being on Slack with clients. They think it gives them free reign to just ping you all day and night. And Travis responds to Julia Vice saying, yeah, the conversation that I have is what pace do you want to operate at If you require granular permissions will operate slower than we could.

21:12 If we can achieve a mutual trust, we can work towards breakneck speed. It's not perfect, but it served me well. Clients like that. They have control over the things that matter and the respect that I need things out of. The engagement as well, absolutely should be mutually beneficial, not just from a money perspective, Julie responds saying yeah, in response to Melissa McKee saying, I try very, very hard to not be on clients slack. If they insist they pay extra and I am not instantly available for them, specify how frequently I will check their Slack on business days. That part is important too. And yeah, Julie Vice goes that Status notifications is IT.

21:53 Phrase Andrews Great says 24 hours response time in the working week are a nice way to ensure that clients don't bombard you with messages. This response can even just be an acknowledgement of receiving the message, but it helps to stop clients and employees feeling the need to be on it at all times. Julie Vice responds very into this confirming receipt note with next steps and timelines in the body. And Julie as well says make sure you put in there your billing terms too. In terms of the contract, that is our invoices due upon request, Are they due within 30 days and what happens if they are late? Lots of things in contracts are there for worst case scenario and just because it is in there does not mean you have to enforce it.

22:36 You can certainly tell a client that you're waiving the fee that is in the contract for late payment etc, but it is there if you need to enforce it. But as it goes, yeah, same reconfirming receipt. Not saying I'll drop everything and do this. Now River goes, we have a list of our responsibilities and their responsibilities. Glad we have that. So it's clear that they need to pay their bills with engines, give us assets, etc. I have a turnaround times specified to Julie goes, Julia goes. I love a work back schedule with our deliverables. They're deliverables. Creative deliverables. Google, Microsoft deliverables. Chefs. Kiss van Brown goes, if I look back at 2019 versus now, way more detail and sometimes repeating things a few times. Comms has gotten a couple updates to make it more clear we don't do weekly meetings that are often a waste of time for clients of exercise.

23:34 Gil Gilner responds saying nearly 100% of our clients comes are via e-mail. The good ones get my cell phone number. Even the good ones I think shouldn't get your cell phone number. But anyway, Michelle responds. I've been dreaming about including some part about baking in vacation time for me since I usually usually do retainer, but not sure if this is standard at all. Eric Hiken responds not from a PPC standpoint, but if I take on any web dev job, I'm writing an expiry period into my agreements. Moving forward. I've agreed to read you a friend's business website for an X flat fee. It's been probably three years I've had the full payment, but he stopped providing assets to complete the job.

24:19 So it sits there as a liability to me that I have yet to make good on. Oh Lord, Julie goes, yeah, you can absolutely stipulate how your work shifts when you are on vacation and what kind of notice you give. Although be careful on that as when you give too much notice, I swear some clients hear that you're retiring and not going to the beach for a week. So all of a sudden it's like, OK, let's find a new paid search consultant, Michelle goes, LOL. I get worried that they are going to freak out and be like checking on stuff every day and assuming things are emergencies when they are not, but I think I need to just do it at some point. Austin Dillman goes, yeah, more thorough in scope and out of scope sections and stricter payment terms. Minimum 50% upfront before work starts and shorter payment cycles.

25:09 Net 15 and now we go on to question four. What is your biggest challenge on the business side of PPC? Gilgilna goes hiring. Nitish goes our second at a very time intensive process that I do not enjoy. Julian Phillips goes finding new clients. My first client is an agency and I manage a number of accounts through them. However, the time has come where I need to attract new clients and I feel out of practice. Julia Weiss goes expectations. I am great at what I do, and I lead a great team. We are not Wizards and can't force Google to do things it won't do. Clients tend to be unrealistic about my limitations how much of their budgets can afford, and partners like Google can be unrealistic about how much budgets my clients actually have. Travis goes inevitably.

25:58 PPC is like a spool of yarn that unravels. It uncovers creative and query level insights that make clients go. I need to address that. The resulting scope creep and getting clients to pay for it is the biggest challenge for me. Me, I said people not paying their invoices or even not on time. So when they're just very late with it and pretending they have no idea, we will make of responsing pricing what clients can realistically and actually afford to pay versus all the various costs involved. A Julie goes, we can help you get better at this. That was to Gillian Phillips, Fraser goes managing expectations. I think it's always one a huge part of tackling that is cross training teams to understand that is what is isn't acceptable. Also pricing can often be an ongoing issue. It takes a lot to say.

26:51 We've built this pricing for a reason. One can't go lower. Of course, there's some room for movement, but clients asking for 50% off is a huge red flag. Yeah, right. Nava goes, yeah, to Gil's points charge upfront and don't do work till it's paid. And Nava goes. I lost roughly 15 K 15,000. Yeah. Dollars. 15 K dollars because of trust in the decency of human beings. Never again. And then Julia Weiss goes, yeah, an immediate discount, 100%. No, a la Pubel. I imagine that's how to say nothing. Not possible. If I'm too much, go find less exactly careful, find less in price and go find less in the level of work that you're going to get.

27:33 Gil Gilner goes, we charge upfront for every client. Even our annual clients pay in one lump annual sum upfront. Wow, I find that very bold. I find that very scary to do. Julie goes, yeah, prior to that, getting checks in a timely manner was challenging about 50% of the time for ongoing clients. And Michelle goes, yeah, the Pandora's box that PPC lovers to open, that loves to open. It leads to an insane amount of business related things for clients that go way beyond the normal scope of what PPC is. So yeah, the ensuing scope creep for me is the issue. Julia Vice goes businesses have to pay. It doesn't have to be emotional or dramatic. Here's the bill, here's the payment terms. If you need relief, we'll have a discussion and move on from there.

28:21 Julie as well says always get paid at least some of the money upfront and do not let them get too far into you if they are slow players. We can't repossess our work, so make sure you're staying in pace with the clients payments and if they start out great and then get slow, address it in the first month. And yeah, Nitish as well says contract needs to be signed, an invoice paid before any work gets started. Also every step of onboarding needs to be done before we start working. Navigo is helping clients understand whether they are in fact the right fit for PPC. I see a lot of folks swindled into smaller budgets that are not going to do anything, not knocking great account management of smaller accounts.

29:06 I just find it's more common than smaller budgets. Accounts struggle here the most. I talk more people out of running Google ads nowadays than I do empowering them to leverage it because of auction prices and creative requirements. Dan Patterson goes Honest question for those of you that are agencies of fly solo with all the big strategies and other services available in Google, is it harder to justify your services these days or do you mainly focus on consulting, working for companies that don't have an internal team etcetera, something I've been wondering about for a while now. Travis goes, yeah, for initial work I charged 50% upfront and and then I'm Moretize the rest of the bill over the remaining duration of work together it requires both parties leaning in and serves well for longer term agreements.

29:56 Julia Vice responds to Dan Patterson and his work on terms of getting clients. Yeah, especially the whole bit strategies development and automation development in Google especially Julia Vice was not at all. While individual bit strategies are more automated they still need expert advice and teams to run the program. My clients are experts at their business. I'm expert at this. Love that Julian response. I also spend more time talking folks out of PPC2 than in two. I know it's the right thing to do, but it registers as counterproductive to people who saw themselves as a potential client. Feels like a lose, lose. It's not a lose, lose, Gil Gilner responds to Dan Patterson as well, saying landscape has definitely changed in the past couple of years. But most of our clients have in house marketing departments, even if it's just two to three folks. The answer is going up markets, small businesses, small business clients are going to be able to do all this themselves soon very well.

30:55 And clients will only be hiring as and when the budgets are big enough to justify some real life eyeballs on the campaigns. Julie as well says, I think our work has shifted. That is, we are not watching bids like Hawks these days. But there's so much to do. There's so much to do to have even the most automated of campaigns running optimally. The machines are still kind of dumb in a lot of areas that we are not. The machines are a lot dumb in a lot of areas that we are not. So yeah, our our role is not going away. Nava Hopkins, as well as responsing. If the only value you were providing was bid adjustment, you were likely in trouble. Absolutely. I I suspect that if you dig into how you enable folks to succeed, you'll see that there was quite a bit more you're doing on the technical or analytics side.

31:45 Conversion, tracking, setup and vetting, creative and message mapping, as well as overall strategy by channel. I'd argue this is probably the most useful time to be a PPC practitioner because most brands can't keep up with all the changes being made. For examples as well says yeah it's an interesting one. I've seen our role change more into data interpreters and truly understanding the platforms to turn the right cogs. I still think many clients can just shove a load of keywords into the platform and think it will make them rich. The biggest thing for me is the role of Google reaching out to clients directly. And if anybody's experienced this experiencing this, I recommend checking out Boris's and his latest threads about teleperformance. Interesting.

32:33 Reva Minkov says that yeah, I was literally just having this semi existential conversation with my team as to what's going to work with smaller budgets. Now I don't always think it's more money that's the solution, but the tactics for PPC are changing, especially on Google. And yeah, Reva Minkov as well say I agreed that AI is less of an issue. You still really, really need someone who knows what they're doing to stare the ship. Julie goes smaller budget accounts are in trouble. Such ads are very much mature ecosystem now and that means it's pricing out smaller advertisers, which is what Nava was talking about, you know, talking about up thread with helping clients determine if such ads are even for them today.

33:18 It's all about keeping our integrity and if you're just going to take someone's money, take someone's budget and not actually deliver with them, you shouldn't be in this industry. That's my opinion. Fred Andrews response saying also super passionate about spend efficiency. It's our job to fight back and in will Reynolds words stop Google taking more of our clients money right. That's what SC is also trying to do as well. So that's why I love them Riva as well. See I agreed that PPC isn't the right answer for everyone but what are you using as your other options these days feel feel like the new Serps, SEO's especially is less effective than it was as is a good chunk of organic social.

34:00 And Julie says as let's not forget the influence we had can have in the post click part of the equation 2 right. Historically I know many have been pretty hands off but I think that is a smart place to build skills right now. And then we go on to question five, our last question for very detailed and the most interactive chat. I don't think there have been this many answers that I've been given by this many people on any of our Twitter chats. Honestly, I don't know, maybe just people don't sometimes find the questions which I found is the case. But this has been a very detailed chat and probably one of the most that I've found over Twitter.

34:40 So yeah, be prepared, they're like over 30 replies to this. But it'll be a summary to this question I'll be giving, So not every response I'll read out. So our last question of this chat is, do you have a business of PPC questions vexing you right now? Maybe we can help now the whole concerns. I want to help everyone and I know I can't and that makes me sad, you know, right. Julia Vice goes yes with one particular client. I don't think y'all can help with that. But I appreciate, I appreciate chairs and well wishes are big chairs to you Julia And then Julie goes, yeah, I want to help all the small businesses to in response to Nava Hopkins especially don't want them to get scammed or waste money on things that won't bring sales. And I think that is a big thing for why paid search market is with integrity.

35:30 We'll still be able to find a job, will still have clients, you know, we need to stay in this industry for the sake of the clients who might be getting scammed and duped by the ones that have no integrity. So yeah, if you're one of those, keep in it, keep fighting for telling how business this Our paid search should be done well. Our businesses should be doing paid search well and not just doing any kind of paid search. Travis goes what vexes means the poor association with price versus value among businesses. No one disagrees with the price of an apple. It's $1.50 per pound and we pay that, no questions asked. When mechanic says it costs X for the part, Y for the labor, we pay the invoice.

36:12 When it comes to online services, people are far less seasoned. Clients come to the table feeling like it's a negotiation, and I don't yet have a complete solution for that. Yeah. And so Gil asks, how do you charge a flat rate? Go Travis goes. I fully scope out services at an hourly rate and 50% upfront, the rest spread evenly over the duration of work. I try to be as blatantly transparent as possible. Go says Ali, is a very difficult model unless you're a holder and then never goes. Actually, maybe you all can help me. I have some consulting clients who use another PPC vendor to manage their accounts and they do so many bad things.

36:54 Don't let my clients own their GA four and add accounts. No negative. Almost all broad search with display select. How do I help my client? They know they could fire the agency but they don't. Also the agency manages the SEOI was gobsmacked at how much My client pays them 18% management fee to do Essentially nothing. Michelle responds. I was wondering how often people renegotiate contracts with clients. I have several clients who have grown pretty significantly under my watch, like 5 to 20% X ad spend return, et cetera. And the work is a lot more, my responsibilities are greater, et cetera. And I want to start having contract renegotiations built into my process.

37:39 How do others approach this? I know we've talked about this and I think a good answer I heard was review things on a yearly basis and let the clients know that you plan that at at certain points of the year you review the contractor, you review the work and increases in price can happen. I think we did a whole discussion about how you charge when you charge, how you, you know, ensure clients know that the more work that you do the more you need to charge them. That really needs to be part of the contract or sow's. No, not sow, but the contract as well, the Ogilner responds saying that we went 100% flat rate retainer model tiered based on ad spend. It's much easier and lets us build totally upfront phrase Andrews goes ideas around how to approach completely cold clients are always welcome.

38:27 Build relationships. That's my my advice. Build relationship, Build people. Who will be your biggest cheerleaders who would really want to work not just with the company, but with their the account managers, the account contact, so that even when they move on and leave a brand, they're still singing your praise in their new job. Julie responds, saying there is an annoyingly persistent perception that things on or related to the Internet should be cheap. I think the best way I have found to handle this is by saying I am not the least expensive provider out there. If that is your number one priority and probably not the consultant for you. Because if they don't inherently see or understand the value in what I bring to the table, they will never be satisfied And who needs that in their life?

39:12 Absolutely. Now Hopkins responsing consider letting them know that you have them on a League legacy plan and you want to keep working with them but need to move them into a different plan. And that's what that's in response to Michelle talking about how work has increased. She has really improved the accounts. How does she charge more then continuing? Nava goes however, as a thank you for their loyalty. You'll discount the new plan even if it's an upsell on where they are now. Julie responds saying a response to Nava saying I think all you can do in that scenario in terms of she has this clients, that or possible client. It sounds like they have a paid search agency doing bad PPC for them. Just let's just call it bad.

39:55 All the best practices are being ignored and they're doing little to nothing for 18% of management fee, Julie continues. I think all you can do in that scenario is tactfully point out the issues whenever they are relevant to what you're discussing with them. You can lead a host to water, dot dot dot or you can't force them to drink. Julia Vice response to Michelle saying that I'd like to review regularly. Doesn't need to be each year just a good cadence and share new platforms, complexity, changes, hours needed to do new talks, tasks. It can be very positive. It can be a very positive conversation and if you show them they might be the ones going oh wow, you've not increased our spend.

40:36 And I actually think by the fact that you've not done it immediately should be a way to encourage them to, you know, sign on that new contract, just show them for like, hey, for X amount of months. I've actually done be doing a lot more than when I started writing when when we when we first signed this contract. Based on that we're going to increase it. And because I'm already giving you a discount, sign this new contract quickly and I think people will understand that people know that you need to get paid for the job you do, don't they? They do, right? Right. Anyway, Julia, Vice responds. What is your role in this? Do you do they see you as a PPC expert? Never. Hawkins goes, yeah. Kirk put this in a great way. Our E hourly rate, and that's the person who does hourly In response to the person who does hourly, you're not paying for how much time it takes.

41:26 Me. You're paying for how well I can get it done as quickly as possible. If I get it done quicker, I should get to get paid more, not less time, not less. So that's why hourly is very dangerous. Travis goes, yeah, perhaps you expose them to how much freedom you offer. With me, you own 100% of what you should GA four is yours as your work product your own. Here's a third party source or article that validates what I'm saying so you can hear it elsewhere. I want to extend that freedom to the business. So yeah, in terms of nervous issue with her very problematic client? Never response saying yes. They hired me specifically to help them challenge their vendors.

42:08 Gogonas responsing my single most important tip? Charge more. The more you charge, the less fuss anyone has about the price. PPC experts are rarer than you'll think, right? Right. I should get back into freelancing. Don't tell anyone now the Hopkins goes. To be clear, I don't want to take the business away from the vendor. If anything, I want them to pay their team more and grow their current staff. Julie Vice goes, aha, then roll up your sleeves, build out a strategy with specifics on what could be done differently, and show what the spend could potentially get on the different management. Then let them decide. And yeah, Julie goes built it, built it, build it into having a yearly conversation with ongoing clients.

42:52 And that's a response to Michelle about the scope of what you're doing for them. You can even position it along the lines of let's make sure we have this set up in the most efficient way possible. And then Julia Vice goes, yeah, something's not connecting for me. In response to Nava, the work is below par in terms of quality. So they want more dollars in order to do better. I'd get that vendor to make serious commitments in that issue, in that situation. And yeah, and response. So about Michelle's issue in regards into making more money with more work, we sometimes do climate meetings to ensure we're on track, communicating well and to create room to change or grow the relationship where needed. And yeah, Michelle goes, I love this idea because I also want better feedback from my kind on how the partnership is going and when Brown responds here in terms of what Travis was saying about like about hourly rates, interesting take on hours. I like your thinking.

43:52 We took on one hourly brand last year as they really wanted to work with us. I just had to charge a high rate to make it worthwhile for the work, which was 30% or higher than the two closest competitors pitching. I still don't love hours, but you got to charge for it, as you said. And then Julie goes, yeah, the bottom line on in how you price and position things in your agreements really comes down to how well it works for you and your situation too. As with everything PPC, there really is not just one way to do anything. And when Brown also says if you are making money and are profiting with how this year is going, you are doing a good job, I say so Lately, if you're if you're going by your principles, you're doing things with integrity, you're making the money, you're making sure you're increasing your rate according to the work that you're doing. You're doing well.

44:48 So guys, stop being stressful with each other, with yourselves, even if you're not. You're getting it's slow on clients and getting your clients be be easier to yourself, be kind to yourself. That's something I need to remind myself. And on that note, we come to the end of this long chat. That was definitely a summary. I didn't read all the responses and look at how much we got through, so let's quickly wrap up. I hope you've taken some great takeaways. I imagine there's going to be a voice conversation about this topic on Thursday, 5:00 PM G and 5:00 PM BST. So we're in British summertime, but at 12:00 PM Eastern Time on Discord on our Discord channel. So look out for the PPC chat group on Discord to join the voice chat.

45:33 Before any feedback about the podcast or even some correction and anything I've said, get in touch with me on Twitter, on threads, on my handle at the Marketing Annual, or just follow me on LinkedIn and let me know what you think. It'd be great for longstanding and brand new listeners to give the podcast a review. It really helps with the growth strategy of the podcast, and you can do that on Spotify and Apple wherever. Just go to linktree.com/P PC chat under score roundup to get get to do that. It'll take seconds. And finally, before I go, by the time you'll be listening to this, PPC Live UK will be happening tomorrow on Thursday, the 27th of July.

46:14 Are we in July? Yes, we're in July. You believe it, 27th of July. We've got 3 speakers, we've got red velvet cake, we've got drinks that I've already ordered yesterday and food that's going to be ordered on the day so that they're fresh and hot for the audience members. There's so many more tickets to be sold. Go to PPC live U k.com. There's a button right to the top saying buy tickets. So go and buy your tickets is going to be a fun one year anniversary celebration and I'm so proud, must say so proud. Finally remember for your campaigns and businesses to glide smoothly. There's a lot of hard work needed beneath the surface, so keep your Swans kicking by and speak to you next week.