EP260 - The Business of PPC

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Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of the PPC chat roundup.

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In today's episode, we have the
amazing Julie Bichini leading us

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again on a topic of the business
of PPC.

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So this is where we answer
questions around what's it like

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working in PPC, how long we've
been doing there, how do we do

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contracts and agreements, what
do we find challenging talking

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about with clients, dealing with
clients, you know any of our

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business questions and and so
forth.

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So we've got five questions that
we go through today.

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And yeah, it's an interesting
chat from people who have been

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in this industry for a long
time, including myself.

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I can't believe it's been as
long as I've been in it.

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So yeah, I would give it away.
You're going to have to listen

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after the the intro to to hear
how long we've been in this

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industry, Is there many, many
veterans in this industry who

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give their advice on how to keep
going on in this industry, how

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to have longevity in this
industry.

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So yeah, I hope you listen and
join Lun.

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All right.
Hello and a warm welcome to this

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week's episode of the PPC Chat
Roundup, a podcast where I round

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up the usually Twitter
discussion that happens on

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Tuesdays at 5:00 PM GMT.
I'm your host Anu and I'm

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recording from my studio here in
London, UK and I use this

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platform to share not just
expert but also my ideas and

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considered best practices about
paid media and the direction the

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digital industry is going in.
So if you wanna keep up to date

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with my tips and tricks in the
industry and get the latest on

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the podcast that has been called
your go to.

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If you don't make it to the PPC
chat, live discussions and even

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if you do then like follow,
share and retweet or reshare or

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repost on Twitter and threads
with my handle the marketing

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annu.
Or join us on our LinkedIn group

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which is the PPC chat roundup.
Or if you're on Instagram, you

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can check us out at PPC chat on
this call roundup to get quotes

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and snippets from our previous
episodes.

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So, yeah, we have Julie taken us
on a great topic of the business

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of PPC and you might have gotten
a few clues from my intro, from

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some stuff that I what I've just
said here right after the intro

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music as to the the the feelings
that we're having towards

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Twitter at the moment.
So you know I said usually the

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Twitter discussion, why that
specifically?

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Because today we had the
discussion on Slack.

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So yeah, we we tested that out.
It was amazing, You know, the

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all the questions were written
out and all the answers were put

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in threads of that question.
So I think that was a great

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method of doing it.
And yes, I'm on threads because

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Twitter is becoming a bit of a
bum site.

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I feel it's just getting all
crazy.

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There was a new branding.
It's not a cold X, not even sure

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my brain cannot even get my head
around that.

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So you'll probably be hearing
more about my podcast episode on

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threads on Twitter.
A little bit on Twitter, if they

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they still allow it for as much
as the for as long as the PPC

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community is still on there, on
LinkedIn as usual for my podcast

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Friday post and as well
elsewhere on Instagram as I

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mentioned on there as well.
We're also on Facebook, so check

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us out on there.
So yeah, enough of the rambling.

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Let's see how this Slack
conversation went before we

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Julie goes into the questions
she reads out saying that, yeah,

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this chat is intended for PPC
professionals of all levels, and

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if you have something you want
to share, please do.

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We are a friendly and supportive
community.

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Please don't be afraid to
participate.

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So even though we've got about
457 people in this Slack channel

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specifically, it's only like a
handful of of people that do

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join the chat.
And we we're welcoming everybody

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that just wants to lurk around
or people who just want to

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listen to the podcast.
You are very, very welcome.

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And thank you for listening to
another episode as we journey

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into this new world of Slack
chat.

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Slack chat, could that be a new
phrase instead of Twitter chat

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is a Slack chat.
Let's get into our questions.

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So question 1, Julie asks how
long have you been working in

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PPC and are you or have you been
agency in House of consultant

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freelancer?
Julia Vice herself says 15 years

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agency life is the PPC person.
So yeah, agency life as the PPC

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person for her.
I've also been close to 15 years

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now.
I've done all of the above.

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So I have been in house agency
tech company now freelancer.

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I've done it all I feel Julie
goes I've been working in PPC

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since literally the beginning
and I'm a consultant and always

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have been.
Melissa McKee goes, yeah I'm

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doing it with a 121 years since
2002.

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I started in inhouse and did
that for five years.

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Fraser Andrews goes been working
in PPC for eight years

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predominantly agency side.
I did have a brief stint in

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higher education marketing for
UK Uni, but discovered it

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definitely wasn't for me,
Michelle Yeager says.

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Technically eight years OMG,
first three at Google as an

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account manager and then past
five as a solar consultant.

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I attempted a few other things
on the side.

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Wine making grad school
interesting and this has been

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the bulk of my income for the
past five years.

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Gil Gilner goes, yeah, marketing
since 2008.

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PPC specifically.
Only since 2016 I was inhouse

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director of special projects a
KA marketing Jack of all trades.

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Travis Bare shell responds
saying, yeah, I've been in PPC

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for about 10 years, mostly
agency side and consulting for

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the past five years.
Started across all digital

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channels, social search,
display, video, audio and now

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specialized predominantly in
SEM&SCEO.

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Dave Gallegos goes there.
I'm in the 20 plus camp PBC

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affiliate to start later agency
and in house Dan Patterson goes

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I started an SEO then in 2010
moved in house and took over PPC

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display and affiliates as well.
And yeah Ashton Cargo's been in

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the agency and consulting life
for five years not always PPC.

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And yeah Julie then answers Dan
Patterson who mentioned his

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stint with starting with SEO.
Julie goes I did SEO back in the

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beginning to you know when you
could make a decent title tag

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and get on page one of Google.
Julie goes as well same.

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So Julia Vice even saying SEO
writer to PPC Dan Patterson's

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gag goes Back in the good old
days I set up a stupid little

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WordPress site and was beating
out major banks for sometimes

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nice one.
Fraze Andrews goes.

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Yeah I did six months of PPC and
SEO work in my first agency and

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I cannot stress enough how
beneficial even having the

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smallest level of SEO knowledge
has helped.

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I don't think I ever really
bought into the whole SEO versus

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PPC thing.
I am so glad to hear that and

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even I did a chat with Viaduct
Jen earlier on today about our

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SEO and PPC can work well
together and the benefits of

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both and Fraser Goes are we all
SEO converts.

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Melissa goes not me being in PPC
from the beginning and Gil

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Gilner says I did almost
exclusively SEO for the first

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few years as well.
I also did SEO in the first

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first few months of my career,
but it was more linked building

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and it was very boring and
salesy.

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So I got out of there quick and
glad that I landed in PPC.

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Fraser Andrews goes, I couldn't
call myself a convert.

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I literally fell into a CEO but
was always interested in PPC

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because of the data.
Yeah and Dave Semperon says I'm

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I I just joined the channel.
I've been doing PPC for 14 years

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River goes.
I've been in PPC for over 15

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years now and have been all of
the above.

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Agency inhouse consultancy
freelance big little like me

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Dave Gallegos goes random ad I
hate when people hate on

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domainers.
I feel like they are cure people

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too like Seo's and PPCRS.
That's interesting, the tertiary

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goes.
I've been in marketing since

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2019, so quite young.
I was a freelancer before, a

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full stock developer, automation
developer for funnel marketing.

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I did that for seven years
before I go into PPC.

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Now the Hopkins goes 15 years
and I've done it all in house.

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Software agency.
I'm a SAS girl at heart, but I

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value my other experiences as
well.

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Jillian Phillips as well.
I've been in PPC for five years

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doing Brown.
I've been in PPC since for 17

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years since I got started.
Been 17 years even since I got

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started the last seven years.
Running an agency.

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So it's a very good agency.
Take some risks.com, check them

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out.
Robert Brady, PPC since 2006.

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Agency and consulting mostly
with a small in house stint at

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the beginning.
Austin Dillman in house from

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2006 to 2019.
Starting my consulting business

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in March 2019 and never looked
back.

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And those are answers for
question one and look at all the

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experience shared then.
This is why this is such an

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amazing group to follow and to
to hear what they have to say on

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things.
So we go to question 2.

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Julie asks, let's start with
contracts or agreements.

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Do you currently use contracts
or agreements with your clients?

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If not, why not?
Julia, VICE, yes.

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Oh heck here.
And we have a whole legal team

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to help us with it.
Julie goes, yeah, absolutely,

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100% of the time, yes.
Gil Gilner goes, yes.

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But usually clients have counsel
that develop their contracts and

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we have to adapt.
Melissa 100% Yes, very different

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at a small agency versus the
whole code though.

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And Michelle Yeager goes, yes I
do, Mostly for legal reasons by.

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But practically so far it's been
the best way for me to try to

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clarify the scope from the
beginning as an attempt to avoid

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massive scope creep.
I think it has helped, but I'm

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still majorly struggling with
boundaries, scope creep, knowing

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when to say no.
As a consultant, I find myself

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in a lot of Gray areas, which I
think might be more of a me

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problem and Gil Gillner goes.
In my experience, the bigger

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clients have bigger requirements
is a hassle, but I guess it pays

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off in the end.
Most of our smaller clients just

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do a a boilerplate sort of
thing.

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However, a lot of our clients
are foreign, so the contracts

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are questionably enforceable
either way.

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I say yeah, currently no, but
even when I was freelance, I

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dealt with contracting agencies.
So agencies that dual let me

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know about agent digital
marketing agencies that are

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looking for people to hire on a
freelance basis.

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And so they dealt with the
contracts and yeah, I just had

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to invoice every month and it
was always done through the

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agency and I'll be paid at
Friday of every week.

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Well every Friday.
So he was ah, I missed that.

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But yeah, trying to find clients
was also a tough started

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becoming a bit tough.
So yeah, didn't want to do that

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and some clients will delay
payment which is annoying.

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But no that's when I wasn't
using the agency.

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So yeah different experiences
Travis.

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Responsing agreement with
periodic Sow's and change

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orders.
Most clients have legal that

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legal that modifies the MSA.
That's an MSA as needed and

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Sow's and CEO's are rarely
touched, only signed.

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Julie goes.
Agreements or contracts both

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cover your butt and also clearly
layout expectations and terms

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when done properly.
Julia Weisko's contracts and

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Sow's are so important.
Never word it vaguely, but clear

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about what is included.
Yes, I'm in a discussion over

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this right now.
Nitish goes, yes, we are using

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contracts with every client
shared some very helpful tips

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regarding contracts as in Julie.
Julie Bichini shared very

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helpful tips regarding contracts
over Foxwall PPC discussion last

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week.
Thanks for that.

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Julie goes, I have had to sue a
client, so trust me when I say

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read all contracts and be sure
what is in them.

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Oh my God, read your contracts,
read, read, read the contract.

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It's so annoying with clients
who are going, Oh yeah, you

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tricked us into a new term.
No we didn't.

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If you read your contract, we're
following exactly what the term

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period is and what the rules of
the term of a current contract

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is.
And then Julia Vice goes, yeah,

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we are essentially at 150% on
hours due to reasons, but 50% on

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revenue from the pitch.
And now they want more stuff

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that is technically in scope,
says Madams.

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And all clients everywhere.
You cannot have what's in the

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SOW's if you consistently ask
for more than we agreed to

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deliver.
Julie also says, I also let me

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say here that if a client is
ever giving you grief about

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signing a contract, take that as
a major red flag.

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00:12:43,270 --> 00:12:45,670
Absolutely.
If they are worried about a

226
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:48,110
particular aspect of the
language, discuss it.

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00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:52,350
I always stress that contracts
protect both parties, as the

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00:12:52,350 --> 00:12:56,550
scope of work, price and other
details are all clearly defined

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00:12:56,550 --> 00:13:01,190
and agreed to by both parties.
Now, Hopkins responds, saying

230
00:13:01,470 --> 00:13:05,750
contracts are safeguards for
both the clients and us. 10,000

231
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:09,210
percent, 100,000% even they are
there.

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00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:12,650
I will say I shifted my
perspective from six months or

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00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:16,810
an annual to month to month.
This is in large part due to how

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00:13:16,810 --> 00:13:20,770
campaigns types have shifted.
Google Now responsing We are

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00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:24,090
month to month for the vast
majority of our clients as well.

236
00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:29,610
Some are annual duly responsing.
I use a hybrid model Nava with a

237
00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:33,130
commitment of three months after
the discovery strategy initial

238
00:13:33,170 --> 00:13:37,380
implementation part is complete
and then month to month after

239
00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:40,060
that phrase.
Andrews response saying super

240
00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:43,540
interesting around SOW and good
and bad clients.

241
00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:47,860
Bit of a plug, but Kirk Williams
of course stop the scale

242
00:13:47,860 --> 00:13:51,220
outlines.
So Kirk's book Stop the Scale

243
00:13:51,460 --> 00:13:53,860
outlines really well.
Some practical approaches to

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00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:56,820
stop scope of work getting out
of hand?

245
00:13:56,820 --> 00:13:59,520
Absolutely, Julia.
Vice responsing, we stick to

246
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,920
annual with 30 day out clauses
on both sides.

247
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,160
The difference comes down to
retainer plus percentage or

248
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,080
hourly.
There are good and bad versions

249
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,280
of each.
We use an initial three month

250
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,240
contract and after that it's
transitioned to monthly and

251
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,200
Navagos as well saying I think
the other factor is whether

252
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,560
we're percentage of spend or
flat rate lead or management

253
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,200
fee.
I find that clients who go lead

254
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,320
based or performance based need
more timelines in place in the

255
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,920
contract because they get
temperamental general

256
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,240
management.
There tends to be more trust

257
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,640
doing Brown responsing.
We have a proposal SOW's and

258
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,580
contracts as one doc.
We use Proposify to get

259
00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:46,900
everything digital digitally
signed.

260
00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:51,340
Been using it since 2019 and it
works well for clients of all

261
00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:54,140
sizes.
Julian Phillips says they are my

262
00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:57,380
most lucrative contracts so far
have been verbal, but I have

263
00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:00,980
much to learn about this stuff.
His contracts have been verbal.

264
00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:02,740
Oh, interesting.
Curious to see what others have

265
00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:05,340
been doing.
Well, we've listed it all out

266
00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:08,820
there for you Julian, and then
Brown says I know some who don't

267
00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:10,700
use one.
Those few times clients

268
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:12,620
questions what we did or didn't
do.

269
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:17,020
And I just pointed to the
proposal sow a couple years ago.

270
00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:20,540
One client wanted to shove the
contract terms in our face even

271
00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:23,660
when they didn't read it.
Then two weeks claim they are

272
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:27,140
unsure that if we did something
because unsure of the very

273
00:15:27,140 --> 00:15:31,060
contract they had access to.
You cannot make this stuff up.

274
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:34,820
Better to get it in writing.
As Julie Bichini said, not

275
00:15:34,820 --> 00:15:37,060
wanting to sign one is a big red
flag.

276
00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:41,220
Have good agencies.
Peeps are not pieces.

277
00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:44,700
You can just change out and
everything will be fine.

278
00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:48,060
Eric, how can responsing I tend
to work with smaller, more

279
00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:52,500
personal businesses with major
contract legalese isn't what

280
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:56,500
either party cares for.
Sure, it exposes me to some more

281
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,140
risk, but from a legal
standpoint, agreement emails

282
00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:03,900
with terms are legally binding,
just not as airtight.

283
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,360
Robert Brady says I always have
a contract or agreement in place

284
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,240
signed by both parties helps to
clarify the payment terms and

285
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,560
scope.
It's a rolling month to month so

286
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,400
I'm not locking anything into a
long term deal.

287
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:23,280
So an Austin Dillman goes, every
client gets an NDA, MSA and SOW

288
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,000
MSA.
We need a new acronym fill for

289
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,510
that one and we simply go on to
question three, saying is there

290
00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:35,310
anything in your contract that
is there because you learned

291
00:16:35,310 --> 00:16:38,030
something the hard way?
If so, what is it?

292
00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:41,950
So what have people learned the
hard way and decided to put in

293
00:16:42,110 --> 00:16:43,950
interesting fact here that I
learned.

294
00:16:43,950 --> 00:16:49,590
I think it was doing my Rd. test
or Rd. driving test or something

295
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:50,990
like that.
The lessons I was taking.

296
00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:55,070
One of my instructors said that
some signs, like the signs of

297
00:16:55,070 --> 00:16:58,380
like, you know, slow down.
You're about to go to an area

298
00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:01,660
that you can't see around the
bend and there's a sign of like

299
00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:05,660
a boomerang shaped sign kind of
thing telling you to slow down.

300
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:10,140
Those kind of signs came into
place after an accident

301
00:17:10,140 --> 00:17:13,099
happened, so on some roads.
So they don't just put it

302
00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:15,700
everywhere, they put it after an
accident happened.

303
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:19,119
So it just reminds me of that
because obviously you're asking

304
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,560
the question of what have you
put in place after an accident

305
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,839
has happened.
So Melissa McKee kicks us off

306
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:28,000
saying I learned to spell out
the exact meeting and reporting

307
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,520
cadence.
Otherwise your smallest client,

308
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,200
smallest clients will demand the
biggest chunk of your time

309
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,480
always.
It's the smallest, the ones that

310
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,040
that that pay the least that
will demand the most honesty

311
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,600
never Hopkins goes account to
build fees.

312
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,810
I used to build campaigns as
part of the core engagement, but

313
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:50,930
I found that folks who pay for
the build are more invested and

314
00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:54,450
buy into the process more than
those who get it for free.

315
00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:57,650
Julie Vice responsing?
Yes, actually, but it's a pretty

316
00:17:57,650 --> 00:18:01,090
corporate example.
We need credit protection ends

317
00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:05,010
for clients because we buy all
media and then bill it plus

318
00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:07,210
fees.
If they are not creditworthy,

319
00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:09,770
all platforms have to bill them
directly.

320
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,080
Delivers response in response to
Nava Hawkins saying yes, those

321
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,800
build fees need to be identified
and built separately.

322
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,440
Travis responds, saying the two
biggest things I've learned are

323
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,400
one clause that indicates all
work product is the property of

324
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,320
client campaigns, payment
profiles, data research.

325
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,720
Yes, two clause that mandates
that work product may be used

326
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,920
with approval in final form to
promote my business.

327
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,560
So case studies that kind of
thing.

328
00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:41,450
The former satisfies clients
that they own the work, plain

329
00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:44,490
and simple.
They pay and XYZ output is

330
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:46,570
theirs.
The latter allows for self

331
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:50,890
promotion, earning future work
and creates A symbiosis that's

332
00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:54,730
healthy in my experience.
You'll go now respond saying no.

333
00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:57,730
In our experience we have found
that we are better served by pre

334
00:18:57,730 --> 00:19:01,450
qualifying clients than spending
too much time enforcing things.

335
00:19:01,730 --> 00:19:04,490
Of course things always slip
through the cracks, but we try

336
00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:07,610
to keep things as open and easy
as possible.

337
00:19:08,010 --> 00:19:12,530
Since we're month to month with
the vast majority of clients, we

338
00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:15,890
have never had issues.
Granted, most of our clients are

339
00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:21,090
smaller, think less than
$2,000,000 per year of of spend,

340
00:19:21,290 --> 00:19:24,050
so they are usually pretty
flexible with things.

341
00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:27,010
Almost everything is in writing
in some way or the other.

342
00:19:27,010 --> 00:19:30,010
However, phrase Andrew's
responsing normally things like

343
00:19:30,010 --> 00:19:32,730
3 month clause.
If things aren't working well

344
00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:35,890
from the offset, it allows both
parties to leave and typically

345
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,960
is a good way to keep things
relatively amicable.

346
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,240
Michelle responds in I include
call cadence, and also

347
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,360
expectations around conversion,
tracking, troubleshooting, et

348
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,920
cetera.
Julia Vice responds in I'm

349
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,400
Jealous and That's here, and
she's jealous of Travis saying

350
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,880
specific brand permission needed
for every blog post, awards

351
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,840
submission, and conference.
So yeah, especially for the

352
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,600
close to that Travis mentioned
in terms of being able to use

353
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,760
the work that he's things that
he's worked on for you know,

354
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,440
promotion purposes for examples,
response saying, yeah, pre

355
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,920
qualification is something that
nowhere near enough agencies are

356
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,000
doing but totally should never
goes pre qualify stress free

357
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,080
equals pre qualify equals to
stress free contracts.

358
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:26,950
Julie goes level of
communication that is included.

359
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:30,470
We have all had a client who
wants to e-mail, talk, etcetera

360
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:32,470
way too much for what they're
paying.

361
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:36,790
My working hours and time zone
and exclusion section about what

362
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:39,590
is not included.
Oh, she continues.

363
00:20:39,630 --> 00:20:42,710
And what is an actual emergency
and how different types are

364
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:47,110
handled as such as one did my
work caused the emergency, two

365
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:50,310
did the platform caused the
emergency, three did the client

366
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:53,720
caused the emergency.
Melissa goes that's part of the

367
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,600
problem with being on Slack with
clients.

368
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,160
They think it gives them free
reign to just ping you all day

369
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,240
and night.
And Travis responds to Julia

370
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,160
Vice saying, yeah, the
conversation that I have is what

371
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,720
pace do you want to operate at
If you require granular

372
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,600
permissions will operate slower
than we could.

373
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,640
If we can achieve a mutual
trust, we can work towards

374
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,860
breakneck speed.
It's not perfect, but it served

375
00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:19,740
me well.
Clients like that.

376
00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:23,100
They have control over the
things that matter and the

377
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,100
respect that I need things out
of.

378
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:27,900
The engagement as well,
absolutely should be mutually

379
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:31,900
beneficial, not just from a
money perspective, Julie

380
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:34,460
responds saying yeah, in
response to Melissa McKee

381
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:38,300
saying, I try very, very hard to
not be on clients slack.

382
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,860
If they insist they pay extra
and I am not instantly available

383
00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:45,520
for them, specify how frequently
I will check their Slack on

384
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,800
business days.
That part is important too.

385
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:53,000
And yeah, Julie Vice goes that
Status notifications is IT.

386
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,560
Phrase Andrews Great says 24
hours response time in the

387
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,400
working week are a nice way to
ensure that clients don't

388
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,200
bombard you with messages.
This response can even just be

389
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,320
an acknowledgement of receiving
the message, but it helps to

390
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,120
stop clients and employees
feeling the need to be on it at

391
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,720
all times.
Julie Vice responds very into

392
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,520
this confirming receipt note
with next steps and timelines in

393
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,120
the body.
And Julie as well says make sure

394
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,440
you put in there your billing
terms too.

395
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,800
In terms of the contract, that
is our invoices due upon

396
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,680
request, Are they due within 30
days and what happens if they

397
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,200
are late?
Lots of things in contracts are

398
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,080
there for worst case scenario
and just because it is in there

399
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,480
does not mean you have to
enforce it.

400
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,720
You can certainly tell a client
that you're waiving the fee that

401
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,720
is in the contract for late
payment etc, but it is there if

402
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,760
you need to enforce it.
But as it goes, yeah, same

403
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,320
reconfirming receipt.
Not saying I'll drop everything

404
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,000
and do this.
Now River goes, we have a list

405
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,160
of our responsibilities and
their responsibilities.

406
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,280
Glad we have that.
So it's clear that they need to

407
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,000
pay their bills with engines,
give us assets, etc.

408
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,120
I have a turnaround times
specified to Julie goes, Julia

409
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:09,800
goes.
I love a work back schedule with

410
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,480
our deliverables.
They're deliverables.

411
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,360
Creative deliverables.
Google, Microsoft deliverables.

412
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,400
Chefs.
Kiss van Brown goes, if I look

413
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,440
back at 2019 versus now, way
more detail and sometimes

414
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,200
repeating things a few times.
Comms has gotten a couple

415
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,920
updates to make it more clear we
don't do weekly meetings that

416
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,600
are often a waste of time for
clients of exercise.

417
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,040
Gil Gilner responds saying
nearly 100% of our clients comes

418
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,440
are via e-mail.
The good ones get my cell phone

419
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,160
number.
Even the good ones I think

420
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,040
shouldn't get your cell phone
number.

421
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,720
But anyway, Michelle responds.
I've been dreaming about

422
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,510
including some part about baking
in vacation time for me since I

423
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:58,230
usually usually do retainer, but
not sure if this is standard at

424
00:23:58,310 --> 00:24:00,910
all.
Eric Hiken responds not from a

425
00:24:00,910 --> 00:24:06,310
PPC standpoint, but if I take on
any web dev job, I'm writing an

426
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:08,070
expiry period into my
agreements.

427
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:10,190
Moving forward.
I've agreed to read you a

428
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:12,910
friend's business website for an
X flat fee.

429
00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:16,350
It's been probably three years
I've had the full payment, but

430
00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:18,870
he stopped providing assets to
complete the job.

431
00:24:19,310 --> 00:24:22,950
So it sits there as a liability
to me that I have yet to make

432
00:24:23,030 --> 00:24:26,790
good on.
Oh Lord, Julie goes, yeah, you

433
00:24:26,790 --> 00:24:30,270
can absolutely stipulate how
your work shifts when you are on

434
00:24:30,270 --> 00:24:32,470
vacation and what kind of notice
you give.

435
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:36,870
Although be careful on that as
when you give too much notice, I

436
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:39,510
swear some clients hear that
you're retiring and not going to

437
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:42,910
the beach for a week.
So all of a sudden it's like,

438
00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:48,070
OK, let's find a new paid search
consultant, Michelle goes, LOL.

439
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:50,550
I get worried that they are
going to freak out and be like

440
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:53,390
checking on stuff every day and
assuming things are emergencies

441
00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:56,990
when they are not, but I think I
need to just do it at some

442
00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:59,750
point.
Austin Dillman goes, yeah, more

443
00:24:59,750 --> 00:25:02,790
thorough in scope and out of
scope sections and stricter

444
00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:06,510
payment terms.
Minimum 50% upfront before work

445
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:08,790
starts and shorter payment
cycles.

446
00:25:09,070 --> 00:25:13,270
Net 15 and now we go on to
question four.

447
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:17,150
What is your biggest challenge
on the business side of PPC?

448
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:21,470
Gilgilna goes hiring.
Nitish goes our second at a very

449
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:24,030
time intensive process that I do
not enjoy.

450
00:25:24,510 --> 00:25:26,390
Julian Phillips goes finding new
clients.

451
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:30,710
My first client is an agency and
I manage a number of accounts

452
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:33,190
through them.
However, the time has come where

453
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:36,190
I need to attract new clients
and I feel out of practice.

454
00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:41,170
Julia Weiss goes expectations.
I am great at what I do, and I

455
00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:43,810
lead a great team.
We are not Wizards and can't

456
00:25:43,810 --> 00:25:45,890
force Google to do things it
won't do.

457
00:25:45,890 --> 00:25:50,410
Clients tend to be unrealistic
about my limitations how much of

458
00:25:50,410 --> 00:25:53,050
their budgets can afford, and
partners like Google can be

459
00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:56,610
unrealistic about how much
budgets my clients actually

460
00:25:56,610 --> 00:25:58,890
have.
Travis goes inevitably.

461
00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:02,240
PPC is like a spool of yarn that
unravels.

462
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,000
It uncovers creative and query
level insights that make clients

463
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,160
go.
I need to address that.

464
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,520
The resulting scope creep and
getting clients to pay for it is

465
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,280
the biggest challenge for me.
Me, I said people not paying

466
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,400
their invoices or even not on
time.

467
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600
So when they're just very late
with it and pretending they have

468
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,880
no idea, we will make of
responsing pricing what clients

469
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,320
can realistically and actually
afford to pay versus all the

470
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,240
various costs involved.
A Julie goes, we can help you

471
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,520
get better at this.
That was to Gillian Phillips,

472
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Fraser goes managing
expectations.

473
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,920
I think it's always one a huge
part of tackling that is cross

474
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,560
training teams to understand
that is what is isn't

475
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,240
acceptable.
Also pricing can often be an

476
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,360
ongoing issue.
It takes a lot to say.

477
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:53,200
We've built this pricing for a
reason.

478
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,680
One can't go lower.
Of course, there's some room for

479
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,720
movement, but clients asking for
50% off is a huge red flag.

480
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,680
Yeah, right.
Nava goes, yeah, to Gil's points

481
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,360
charge upfront and don't do work
till it's paid.

482
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,280
And Nava goes.
I lost roughly 15 K 15,000.

483
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,320
Yeah.
Dollars. 15 K dollars because of

484
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,080
trust in the decency of human
beings.

485
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,360
Never again.
And then Julia Weiss goes, yeah,

486
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,440
an immediate discount, 100%.
No, a la Pubel.

487
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:24,420
I imagine that's how to say
nothing.

488
00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:27,900
Not possible.
If I'm too much, go find less

489
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:31,180
exactly careful, find less in
price and go find less in the

490
00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:32,940
level of work that you're going
to get.

491
00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:36,420
Gil Gilner goes, we charge
upfront for every client.

492
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:41,380
Even our annual clients pay in
one lump annual sum upfront.

493
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,780
Wow, I find that very bold.
I find that very scary to do.

494
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:48,620
Julie goes, yeah, prior to that,
getting checks in a timely

495
00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:53,100
manner was challenging about 50%
of the time for ongoing clients.

496
00:27:53,540 --> 00:27:57,500
And Michelle goes, yeah, the
Pandora's box that PPC lovers to

497
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:00,980
open, that loves to open.
It leads to an insane amount of

498
00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:03,980
business related things for
clients that go way beyond the

499
00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,540
normal scope of what PPC is.
So yeah, the ensuing scope creep

500
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:12,240
for me is the issue.
Julia Vice goes businesses have

501
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240
to pay.
It doesn't have to be emotional

502
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,200
or dramatic.
Here's the bill, here's the

503
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,280
payment terms.
If you need relief, we'll have a

504
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,840
discussion and move on from
there.

505
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,160
Julie as well says always get
paid at least some of the money

506
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,040
upfront and do not let them get
too far into you if they are

507
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,280
slow players.
We can't repossess our work, so

508
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,920
make sure you're staying in pace
with the clients payments and if

509
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:39,950
they start out great and then
get slow, address it in the

510
00:28:39,950 --> 00:28:43,350
first month.
And yeah, Nitish as well says

511
00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:46,590
contract needs to be signed, an
invoice paid before any work

512
00:28:46,590 --> 00:28:49,030
gets started.
Also every step of onboarding

513
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:52,030
needs to be done before we start
working.

514
00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:55,390
Navigo is helping clients
understand whether they are in

515
00:28:55,390 --> 00:29:00,020
fact the right fit for PPC.
I see a lot of folks swindled

516
00:29:00,020 --> 00:29:03,540
into smaller budgets that are
not going to do anything, not

517
00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:06,620
knocking great account
management of smaller accounts.

518
00:29:06,620 --> 00:29:09,260
I just find it's more common
than smaller budgets.

519
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:13,220
Accounts struggle here the most.
I talk more people out of

520
00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:16,540
running Google ads nowadays than
I do empowering them to leverage

521
00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:20,620
it because of auction prices and
creative requirements.

522
00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:23,780
Dan Patterson goes Honest
question for those of you that

523
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:28,060
are agencies of fly solo with
all the big strategies and other

524
00:29:28,060 --> 00:29:30,980
services available in Google, is
it harder to justify your

525
00:29:30,980 --> 00:29:34,420
services these days or do you
mainly focus on consulting,

526
00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:38,300
working for companies that don't
have an internal team etcetera,

527
00:29:38,580 --> 00:29:41,940
something I've been wondering
about for a while now.

528
00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:46,340
Travis goes, yeah, for initial
work I charged 50% upfront and

529
00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:50,380
and then I'm Moretize the rest
of the bill over the remaining

530
00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:53,500
duration of work together it
requires both parties leaning in

531
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,340
and serves well for longer term
agreements.

532
00:29:56,890 --> 00:29:59,770
Julia Vice responds to Dan
Patterson and his work on terms

533
00:29:59,770 --> 00:30:03,530
of getting clients.
Yeah, especially the whole bit

534
00:30:03,530 --> 00:30:07,250
strategies development and
automation development in Google

535
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:09,610
especially Julia Vice was not at
all.

536
00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:13,090
While individual bit strategies
are more automated they still

537
00:30:13,090 --> 00:30:15,810
need expert advice and teams to
run the program.

538
00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:18,050
My clients are experts at their
business.

539
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:22,020
I'm expert at this.
Love that Julian response.

540
00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:26,100
I also spend more time talking
folks out of PPC2 than in two.

541
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:28,620
I know it's the right thing to
do, but it registers as

542
00:30:28,620 --> 00:30:31,860
counterproductive to people who
saw themselves as a potential

543
00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:34,140
client.
Feels like a lose, lose.

544
00:30:34,140 --> 00:30:37,580
It's not a lose, lose, Gil
Gilner responds to Dan Patterson

545
00:30:37,580 --> 00:30:40,220
as well, saying landscape has
definitely changed in the past

546
00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:43,220
couple of years.
But most of our clients have in

547
00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:45,980
house marketing departments,
even if it's just two to three

548
00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:48,560
folks.
The answer is going up markets,

549
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,040
small businesses, small business
clients are going to be able to

550
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,480
do all this themselves soon very
well.

551
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,960
And clients will only be hiring
as and when the budgets are big

552
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,920
enough to justify some real life
eyeballs on the campaigns.

553
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,000
Julie as well says, I think our
work has shifted.

554
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,960
That is, we are not watching
bids like Hawks these days.

555
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,960
But there's so much to do.
There's so much to do to have

556
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,480
even the most automated of
campaigns running optimally.

557
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,040
The machines are still kind of
dumb in a lot of areas that we

558
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,040
are not.
The machines are a lot dumb in a

559
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,720
lot of areas that we are not.
So yeah, our our role is not

560
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,040
going away.
Nava Hopkins, as well as

561
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,600
responsing.
If the only value you were

562
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,160
providing was bid adjustment,
you were likely in trouble.

563
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,200
Absolutely.
I I suspect that if you dig into

564
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,010
how you enable folks to succeed,
you'll see that there was quite

565
00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:45,330
a bit more you're doing on the
technical or analytics side.

566
00:31:45,330 --> 00:31:49,090
Conversion, tracking, setup and
vetting, creative and message

567
00:31:49,090 --> 00:31:51,850
mapping, as well as overall
strategy by channel.

568
00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:55,650
I'd argue this is probably the
most useful time to be a PPC

569
00:31:55,650 --> 00:31:59,170
practitioner because most brands
can't keep up with all the

570
00:31:59,170 --> 00:32:03,320
changes being made.
For examples as well says yeah

571
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,320
it's an interesting one.
I've seen our role change more

572
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,160
into data interpreters and truly
understanding the platforms to

573
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,840
turn the right cogs.
I still think many clients can

574
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,840
just shove a load of keywords
into the platform and think it

575
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720
will make them rich.
The biggest thing for me is the

576
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,440
role of Google reaching out to
clients directly.

577
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,200
And if anybody's experienced
this experiencing this, I

578
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,990
recommend checking out Boris's
and his latest threads about

579
00:32:30,990 --> 00:32:33,390
teleperformance.
Interesting.

580
00:32:33,910 --> 00:32:36,670
Reva Minkov says that yeah, I
was literally just having this

581
00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:40,510
semi existential conversation
with my team as to what's going

582
00:32:40,510 --> 00:32:44,310
to work with smaller budgets.
Now I don't always think it's

583
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:47,950
more money that's the solution,
but the tactics for PPC are

584
00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:52,830
changing, especially on Google.
And yeah, Reva Minkov as well

585
00:32:52,830 --> 00:32:55,490
say I agreed that AI is less of
an issue.

586
00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:58,450
You still really, really need
someone who knows what they're

587
00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:01,930
doing to stare the ship.
Julie goes smaller budget

588
00:33:01,930 --> 00:33:05,530
accounts are in trouble.
Such ads are very much mature

589
00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:08,570
ecosystem now and that means
it's pricing out smaller

590
00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:11,970
advertisers, which is what Nava
was talking about, you know,

591
00:33:11,970 --> 00:33:15,290
talking about up thread with
helping clients determine if

592
00:33:15,290 --> 00:33:17,970
such ads are even for them
today.

593
00:33:18,250 --> 00:33:21,010
It's all about keeping our
integrity and if you're just

594
00:33:21,010 --> 00:33:24,340
going to take someone's money,
take someone's budget and not

595
00:33:24,340 --> 00:33:27,540
actually deliver with them, you
shouldn't be in this industry.

596
00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:30,540
That's my opinion.
Fred Andrews response saying

597
00:33:30,580 --> 00:33:33,300
also super passionate about
spend efficiency.

598
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:37,460
It's our job to fight back and
in will Reynolds words stop

599
00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:39,820
Google taking more of our
clients money right.

600
00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:42,180
That's what SC is also trying to
do as well.

601
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:44,420
So that's why I love them Riva
as well.

602
00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:47,500
See I agreed that PPC isn't the
right answer for everyone but

603
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:51,180
what are you using as your other
options these days feel feel

604
00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:55,330
like the new Serps, SEO's
especially is less effective

605
00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:59,410
than it was as is a good chunk
of organic social.

606
00:34:00,250 --> 00:34:03,130
And Julie says as let's not
forget the influence we had can

607
00:34:03,130 --> 00:34:06,530
have in the post click part of
the equation 2 right.

608
00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:10,330
Historically I know many have
been pretty hands off but I

609
00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:15,050
think that is a smart place to
build skills right now.

610
00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:20,250
And then we go on to question
five, our last question for very

611
00:34:20,330 --> 00:34:23,900
detailed and the most
interactive chat.

612
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:26,739
I don't think there have been
this many answers that I've been

613
00:34:26,739 --> 00:34:29,260
given by this many people on any
of our Twitter chats.

614
00:34:29,340 --> 00:34:32,219
Honestly, I don't know, maybe
just people don't sometimes find

615
00:34:32,219 --> 00:34:34,260
the questions which I found is
the case.

616
00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:38,460
But this has been a very
detailed chat and probably one

617
00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:40,500
of the most that I've found over
Twitter.

618
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,739
So yeah, be prepared, they're
like over 30 replies to this.

619
00:34:43,739 --> 00:34:47,139
But it'll be a summary to this
question I'll be giving, So not

620
00:34:47,219 --> 00:34:51,739
every response I'll read out.
So our last question of this

621
00:34:51,739 --> 00:34:56,260
chat is, do you have a business
of PPC questions vexing you

622
00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:59,500
right now?
Maybe we can help now the whole

623
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:01,180
concerns.
I want to help everyone and I

624
00:35:01,180 --> 00:35:04,220
know I can't and that makes me
sad, you know, right.

625
00:35:04,810 --> 00:35:06,890
Julia Vice goes yes with one
particular client.

626
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:08,610
I don't think y'all can help
with that.

627
00:35:08,610 --> 00:35:12,290
But I appreciate, I appreciate
chairs and well wishes are big

628
00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:15,850
chairs to you Julia And then
Julie goes, yeah, I want to help

629
00:35:15,890 --> 00:35:18,530
all the small businesses to in
response to Nava Hopkins

630
00:35:18,570 --> 00:35:22,090
especially don't want them to
get scammed or waste money on

631
00:35:22,090 --> 00:35:26,810
things that won't bring sales.
And I think that is a big thing

632
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:29,970
for why paid search market is
with integrity.

633
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:34,460
We'll still be able to find a
job, will still have clients,

634
00:35:34,460 --> 00:35:36,980
you know, we need to stay in
this industry for the sake of

635
00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:40,620
the clients who might be getting
scammed and duped by the ones

636
00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:43,500
that have no integrity.
So yeah, if you're one of those,

637
00:35:43,620 --> 00:35:48,100
keep in it, keep fighting for
telling how business this Our

638
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:51,340
paid search should be done well.
Our businesses should be doing

639
00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:55,580
paid search well and not just
doing any kind of paid search.

640
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,240
Travis goes what vexes means the
poor association with price

641
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,200
versus value among businesses.
No one disagrees with the price

642
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,640
of an apple.
It's $1.50 per pound and we pay

643
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,040
that, no questions asked.
When mechanic says it costs X

644
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,920
for the part, Y for the labor,
we pay the invoice.

645
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,880
When it comes to online
services, people are far less

646
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,360
seasoned.
Clients come to the table

647
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,400
feeling like it's a negotiation,
and I don't yet have a complete

648
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,680
solution for that.
Yeah.

649
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,400
And so Gil asks, how do you
charge a flat rate?

650
00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:29,130
Go Travis goes.
I fully scope out services at an

651
00:36:29,170 --> 00:36:33,290
hourly rate and 50% upfront, the
rest spread evenly over the

652
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:37,090
duration of work.
I try to be as blatantly

653
00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:41,370
transparent as possible.
Go says Ali, is a very difficult

654
00:36:41,370 --> 00:36:45,050
model unless you're a holder and
then never goes.

655
00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:46,810
Actually, maybe you all can help
me.

656
00:36:46,810 --> 00:36:50,490
I have some consulting clients
who use another PPC vendor to

657
00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:53,850
manage their accounts and they
do so many bad things.

658
00:36:54,430 --> 00:36:57,790
Don't let my clients own their
GA four and add accounts.

659
00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:00,470
No negative.
Almost all broad search with

660
00:37:00,470 --> 00:37:03,550
display select.
How do I help my client?

661
00:37:03,550 --> 00:37:06,190
They know they could fire the
agency but they don't.

662
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:11,030
Also the agency manages the SEOI
was gobsmacked at how much My

663
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:15,550
client pays them 18% management
fee to do Essentially nothing.

664
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:18,430
Michelle responds.
I was wondering how often people

665
00:37:18,430 --> 00:37:20,470
renegotiate contracts with
clients.

666
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:24,200
I have several clients who have
grown pretty significantly under

667
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,920
my watch, like 5 to 20% X ad
spend return, et cetera.

668
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,240
And the work is a lot more, my
responsibilities are greater, et

669
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,200
cetera.
And I want to start having

670
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,880
contract renegotiations built
into my process.

671
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,960
How do others approach this?
I know we've talked about this

672
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,390
and I think a good answer I
heard was review things on a

673
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:49,870
yearly basis and let the clients
know that you plan that at at

674
00:37:49,870 --> 00:37:52,510
certain points of the year you
review the contractor, you

675
00:37:52,510 --> 00:37:56,710
review the work and increases in
price can happen.

676
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:59,750
I think we did a whole
discussion about how you charge

677
00:37:59,750 --> 00:38:03,870
when you charge, how you, you
know, ensure clients know that

678
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:06,830
the more work that you do the
more you need to charge them.

679
00:38:06,830 --> 00:38:10,580
That really needs to be part of
the contract or sow's.

680
00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:13,700
No, not sow, but the contract as
well, the Ogilner responds

681
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:17,180
saying that we went 100% flat
rate retainer model tiered based

682
00:38:17,180 --> 00:38:19,340
on ad spend.
It's much easier and lets us

683
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:23,700
build totally upfront phrase
Andrews goes ideas around how to

684
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,740
approach completely cold clients
are always welcome.

685
00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:29,620
Build relationships.
That's my my advice.

686
00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:31,780
Build relationship, Build
people.

687
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:34,180
Who will be your biggest
cheerleaders who would really

688
00:38:34,180 --> 00:38:37,410
want to work not just with the
company, but with their the

689
00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:40,890
account managers, the account
contact, so that even when they

690
00:38:40,890 --> 00:38:45,450
move on and leave a brand,
they're still singing your

691
00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:48,770
praise in their new job.
Julie responds, saying there is

692
00:38:48,770 --> 00:38:51,970
an annoyingly persistent
perception that things on or

693
00:38:51,970 --> 00:38:53,850
related to the Internet should
be cheap.

694
00:38:53,850 --> 00:38:56,170
I think the best way I have
found to handle this is by

695
00:38:56,170 --> 00:38:59,470
saying I am not the least
expensive provider out there.

696
00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:02,390
If that is your number one
priority and probably not the

697
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:05,630
consultant for you.
Because if they don't inherently

698
00:39:05,630 --> 00:39:09,550
see or understand the value in
what I bring to the table, they

699
00:39:09,550 --> 00:39:12,110
will never be satisfied And who
needs that in their life?

700
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:14,870
Absolutely.
Now Hopkins responsing consider

701
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:18,990
letting them know that you have
them on a League legacy plan and

702
00:39:18,990 --> 00:39:23,190
you want to keep working with
them but need to move them into

703
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:24,830
a different plan.
And that's what that's in

704
00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:28,630
response to Michelle talking
about how work has increased.

705
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:30,550
She has really improved the
accounts.

706
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:33,190
How does she charge more then
continuing?

707
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:35,750
Nava goes however, as a thank
you for their loyalty.

708
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:38,790
You'll discount the new plan
even if it's an upsell on where

709
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:42,190
they are now.
Julie responds saying a response

710
00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:45,350
to Nava saying I think all you
can do in that scenario in terms

711
00:39:45,390 --> 00:39:49,600
of she has this clients, that or
possible client.

712
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,200
It sounds like they have a paid
search agency doing bad PPC for

713
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,880
them.
Just let's just call it bad.

714
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,280
All the best practices are being
ignored and they're doing little

715
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,440
to nothing for 18% of management
fee, Julie continues.

716
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,160
I think all you can do in that
scenario is tactfully point out

717
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,480
the issues whenever they are
relevant to what you're

718
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,800
discussing with them.
You can lead a host to water,

719
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,000
dot dot dot or you can't force
them to drink.

720
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:18,630
Julia Vice response to Michelle
saying that I'd like to review

721
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:20,550
regularly.
Doesn't need to be each year

722
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:23,710
just a good cadence and share
new platforms, complexity,

723
00:40:23,710 --> 00:40:27,070
changes, hours needed to do new
talks, tasks.

724
00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:29,750
It can be very positive.
It can be a very positive

725
00:40:29,950 --> 00:40:32,830
conversation and if you show
them they might be the ones

726
00:40:32,830 --> 00:40:36,510
going oh wow, you've not
increased our spend.

727
00:40:36,910 --> 00:40:39,430
And I actually think by the fact
that you've not done it

728
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:43,340
immediately should be a way to
encourage them to, you know,

729
00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:46,660
sign on that new contract, just
show them for like, hey, for X

730
00:40:46,660 --> 00:40:48,940
amount of months.
I've actually done be doing a

731
00:40:48,940 --> 00:40:52,780
lot more than when I started
writing when when we when we

732
00:40:52,860 --> 00:40:56,300
first signed this contract.
Based on that we're going to

733
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:58,060
increase it.
And because I'm already giving

734
00:40:58,060 --> 00:41:01,740
you a discount, sign this new
contract quickly and I think

735
00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:04,220
people will understand that
people know that you need to get

736
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:06,380
paid for the job you do, don't
they?

737
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:08,210
They do, right?
Right.

738
00:41:08,650 --> 00:41:11,490
Anyway, Julia, Vice responds.
What is your role in this?

739
00:41:11,490 --> 00:41:14,090
Do you do they see you as a PPC
expert?

740
00:41:14,530 --> 00:41:15,770
Never.
Hawkins goes, yeah.

741
00:41:15,970 --> 00:41:19,450
Kirk put this in a great way.
Our E hourly rate, and that's

742
00:41:19,450 --> 00:41:22,450
the person who does hourly In
response to the person who does

743
00:41:22,490 --> 00:41:26,130
hourly, you're not paying for
how much time it takes.

744
00:41:26,450 --> 00:41:28,730
Me.
You're paying for how well I can

745
00:41:28,730 --> 00:41:30,250
get it done as quickly as
possible.

746
00:41:30,730 --> 00:41:33,450
If I get it done quicker, I
should get to get paid more, not

747
00:41:33,450 --> 00:41:36,050
less time, not less.
So that's why hourly is very

748
00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:38,810
dangerous.
Travis goes, yeah, perhaps you

749
00:41:38,810 --> 00:41:41,570
expose them to how much freedom
you offer.

750
00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:46,210
With me, you own 100% of what
you should GA four is yours as

751
00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:50,210
your work product your own.
Here's a third party source or

752
00:41:50,210 --> 00:41:53,530
article that validates what I'm
saying so you can hear it

753
00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:56,450
elsewhere.
I want to extend that freedom to

754
00:41:56,610 --> 00:41:59,650
the business.
So yeah, in terms of nervous

755
00:41:59,690 --> 00:42:02,520
issue with her very problematic
client?

756
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,480
Never response saying yes.
They hired me specifically to

757
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,280
help them challenge their
vendors.

758
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,640
Gogonas responsing my single
most important tip?

759
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,840
Charge more.
The more you charge, the less

760
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,840
fuss anyone has about the price.
PPC experts are rarer than

761
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,240
you'll think, right?
Right.

762
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,680
I should get back into
freelancing.

763
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,080
Don't tell anyone now the
Hopkins goes.

764
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,520
To be clear, I don't want to
take the business away from the

765
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,440
vendor.
If anything, I want them to pay

766
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,480
their team more and grow their
current staff.

767
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,160
Julie Vice goes, aha, then roll
up your sleeves, build out a

768
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,680
strategy with specifics on what
could be done differently, and

769
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,400
show what the spend could
potentially get on the different

770
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,480
management.
Then let them decide.

771
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,080
And yeah, Julie goes built it,
built it, build it into having a

772
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,720
yearly conversation with ongoing
clients.

773
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,560
And that's a response to
Michelle about the scope of what

774
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,200
you're doing for them.
You can even position it along

775
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,480
the lines of let's make sure we
have this set up in the most

776
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,320
efficient way possible.
And then Julia Vice goes, yeah,

777
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:07,920
something's not connecting for
me.

778
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,440
In response to Nava, the work is
below par in terms of quality.

779
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,360
So they want more dollars in
order to do better.

780
00:43:14,770 --> 00:43:17,450
I'd get that vendor to make
serious commitments in that

781
00:43:17,610 --> 00:43:21,330
issue, in that situation.
And yeah, and response.

782
00:43:21,330 --> 00:43:25,570
So about Michelle's issue in
regards into making more money

783
00:43:25,570 --> 00:43:29,490
with more work, we sometimes do
climate meetings to ensure we're

784
00:43:29,490 --> 00:43:34,570
on track, communicating well and
to create room to change or grow

785
00:43:34,650 --> 00:43:38,250
the relationship where needed.
And yeah, Michelle goes, I love

786
00:43:38,250 --> 00:43:41,530
this idea because I also want
better feedback from my kind on

787
00:43:41,530 --> 00:43:46,020
how the partnership is going and
when Brown responds here in

788
00:43:46,020 --> 00:43:49,900
terms of what Travis was saying
about like about hourly rates,

789
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:52,020
interesting take on hours.
I like your thinking.

790
00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:55,660
We took on one hourly brand last
year as they really wanted to

791
00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:58,660
work with us.
I just had to charge a high rate

792
00:43:58,660 --> 00:44:02,700
to make it worthwhile for the
work, which was 30% or higher

793
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:05,620
than the two closest competitors
pitching.

794
00:44:05,860 --> 00:44:10,460
I still don't love hours, but
you got to charge for it, as you

795
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:12,750
said.
And then Julie goes, yeah, the

796
00:44:12,750 --> 00:44:16,950
bottom line on in how you price
and position things in your

797
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:20,230
agreements really comes down to
how well it works for you and

798
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:23,750
your situation too.
As with everything PPC, there

799
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:26,110
really is not just one way to do
anything.

800
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:29,510
And when Brown also says if you
are making money and are

801
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:34,510
profiting with how this year is
going, you are doing a good job,

802
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,750
I say so Lately, if you're if
you're going by your principles,

803
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:40,750
you're doing things with
integrity, you're making the

804
00:44:40,750 --> 00:44:44,470
money, you're making sure you're
increasing your rate according

805
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:48,190
to the work that you're doing.
You're doing well.

806
00:44:48,190 --> 00:44:50,950
So guys, stop being stressful
with each other, with

807
00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:53,990
yourselves, even if you're not.
You're getting it's slow on

808
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:58,350
clients and getting your clients
be be easier to yourself, be

809
00:44:58,350 --> 00:44:59,950
kind to yourself.
That's something I need to

810
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:02,310
remind myself.
And on that note, we come to the

811
00:45:02,310 --> 00:45:05,980
end of this long chat.
That was definitely a summary.

812
00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:09,780
I didn't read all the responses
and look at how much we got

813
00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:12,220
through, so let's quickly wrap
up.

814
00:45:12,220 --> 00:45:13,900
I hope you've taken some great
takeaways.

815
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:18,340
I imagine there's going to be a
voice conversation about this

816
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:21,260
topic on Thursday, 5:00 PM G and
5:00 PM BST.

817
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:24,540
So we're in British summertime,
but at 12:00 PM Eastern Time on

818
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:28,860
Discord on our Discord channel.
So look out for the PPC chat

819
00:45:29,140 --> 00:45:32,620
group on Discord to join the
voice chat.

820
00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:36,130
Before any feedback about the
podcast or even some correction

821
00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:38,730
and anything I've said, get in
touch with me on Twitter, on

822
00:45:38,730 --> 00:45:43,170
threads, on my handle at the
Marketing Annual, or just follow

823
00:45:43,170 --> 00:45:45,130
me on LinkedIn and let me know
what you think.

824
00:45:45,610 --> 00:45:48,170
It'd be great for longstanding
and brand new listeners to give

825
00:45:48,170 --> 00:45:50,690
the podcast a review.
It really helps with the growth

826
00:45:50,970 --> 00:45:54,810
strategy of the podcast, and you
can do that on Spotify and Apple

827
00:45:55,010 --> 00:45:59,130
wherever.
Just go to linktree.com/P PC

828
00:45:59,130 --> 00:46:02,950
chat under score roundup to get
get to do that.

829
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:06,230
It'll take seconds.
And finally, before I go, by the

830
00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:08,990
time you'll be listening to
this, PPC Live UK will be

831
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:14,070
happening tomorrow on Thursday,
the 27th of July.

832
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:15,590
Are we in July?
Yes, we're in July.

833
00:46:16,070 --> 00:46:20,230
You believe it, 27th of July.
We've got 3 speakers, we've got

834
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:23,430
red velvet cake, we've got
drinks that I've already ordered

835
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:27,390
yesterday and food that's going
to be ordered on the day so that

836
00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:30,650
they're fresh and hot for the
audience members.

837
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:32,690
There's so many more tickets to
be sold.

838
00:46:32,690 --> 00:46:36,250
Go to PPC live U k.com.
There's a button right to the

839
00:46:36,250 --> 00:46:39,570
top saying buy tickets.
So go and buy your tickets is

840
00:46:39,570 --> 00:46:43,050
going to be a fun one year
anniversary celebration and I'm

841
00:46:43,050 --> 00:46:47,610
so proud, must say so proud.
Finally remember for your

842
00:46:47,610 --> 00:46:49,850
campaigns and businesses to
glide smoothly.

843
00:46:49,850 --> 00:46:52,370
There's a lot of hard work
needed beneath the surface, so

844
00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:54,930
keep your Swans kicking by and
speak to you next week.