EP252 - Targeting Ads in Today’s Ever Changing Environment

0:00 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the PPC chat Roundup in today's episode. We have Julie taken us on a great topic of targeting ads in today's ever-changing environment. And yeah, we know Google Facebook how you know, all the other platforms, there's always something changing. There's always something evolving. Not sure what changes that have happened over the past few days or possibly last week, or so. I was on holiday in Dallas, us. And it was really, really great. And so I did take a break from, you know, all the Impending doom changes that. We sometimes they sometimes feel that we're getting and I think there's something going on with Tick-Tock and how you can advertise them and tricks on how you can advertise on there and you know how you did the targeting on there. But I will be learning very much new things in terms of what our community have shed in this chat. So, that would be great.

0:48 I would love learning new things and I was just thinking that as someone who is very much in the strategy role, who doesn't really, doesn't do Hands-On stuff in the past forms, these chats are very useful. Me to really know in terms of what people are doing on a platform level. So whether it's platform, level strategy, level that we're talking about today. I'm excited to learn more and I hope you are too. Alright, let's go. Hello, and a warm, welcome to this episode of the PPC chat round up a podcast where I round up the Twitter discussions. That happened on Tuesdays at 5 p.m.

1:29 GMT. I'm your host, a new, and I'm recording from my studio here in London UK. Now use this platform to share, not just expert but also my ideas and considered best practices about paid media and the direction the digital industry is going in. So if you want to keep up to date with my tips and tricks in the industry, and get the latest on the podcast that has been called your go to if you don't make it to the PPC chat live discussions and even if you do then like follow share and retweets. And that's right Twitter with the handle the marketing, a new or join us on our LinkedIn group on PPC, chat, Roundup podcast, or if you're on Instagram, why don't you check us out at PPC, chat on the school. Round Up to get quotes and Snippets from previous episodes.

2:09 So we have Julie taken us on another great topic leading us in a great topic of targeting ads. In today's ever-changing environment with gold, some Usual Suspects during the chat like Chris Ridley, Julie advice, Melissa Markey, Diner, Lena, Robert Brady, I as well, go. Gildner the usual usual on here as well. And Many more. But before we get into questions, this chat is definitely intended for PPC, Professionals of all levels. If you have something you want to share, please do we are friendly and supportive Community. Please don't be afraid to participate. Lurkers. And of course podcast listeners are always welcome to. So thank you for joining us here today.

2:51 So, without further Ado, let's get straight into the questions. Julie asks and kicks us off with. How do you decide on the targeting for PPC, advertising. I'd say, it depends on the audience, whether they'd be likely pants with the audience is, where they are, what the budget is like, what your budget is like, you know? So that's whether it's a tight budget and you want to Target a small group of people, whether you want to Target a large group of people. So yeah. Those will be the first things that come to mind. Chris Bradley response, saying, oh, and open question. I like it, firstly, with talk to the clients about their offering and current customer base as well as reviewing any analytics or advertising day. Data already available. Secondly, we then look at kpis as well as predicted over average costs and see ours. And he continues finally with workout which strategy platform or at times and keywords or audiences would work best to reach their target audience with the available budgets and set kpis.

3:51 And then we have Gilda responding to question one as well. Saying my viewpoints or rather, the way I frame it are slowly changing on this but ultimately Boils down to one thing, who pays the client that our ultimate goal, whether its sales or leads, we just want to be in front of those who make our clients, The Big Box Rush response. A my Approach typically involves first understanding the product and identifying the core 20% of the target audience. Once I have a clan, the standing of these factors, I begin to formulate a targeting strategy. Aligned with the specific stages of the marketing funnel slope. Eden response. Question, one saying combination of clients input plus product research plus analytics Google ads, history in sides plus gut. And then after a proper plan trying to identify 20% that brings 80% results, somehow it works always for a good start, Travis response as well saying in search at based Google ads, start with the most intent field phrases from robust keyword research.

4:55 That's the bullseye. Each outer ring loses some intent. Plus Incrementally pricier demand gen, Google ads, can tap into conversion terms, competitor sites names channels, top indexing Affinity or in Market than a linear response saying, based on the buyer Persona and Melissa McKee response question once and campaign goals or objectives, final stage, personas if we have them content who is a designed to speak to and then we have never Hopkins responding to question one saying I've you targeting as a buyer Persona question. So typically will think about One locations to baked in audiences three ways. People search or consume content, for proactive, exclusions audiences placement, negatives, Etc. And she continues when I think some folks get stuck isn't trying to do too many things in.

5:49 And the same campaign or ad group, or add said, it's not realistic to be able to cover all your markets in a single campaign Melissa goes. Yes, - audiences or Is are an important part of targeting their acknowledged says, yep. The fundies have never changed do more of what works less of what doesn't reverse bonded targeting, isn't just about, who to Target. It's also very much about who not to Target. And then Julie herself gives an answer saying we always work with clients to figure out audiences to Target and test. And then utilize the tools available in the platforms to get, as close as we can to what we want to actually Target. And Or test.

6:31 Robert, Brady respond saying, I love keywords because you can't beat the high intent but things have moved more towards audience targeting. So you've got to know the who that you're targeting to get in front of then you offer solutions to their problems or pain points. You're gonna goes, this is a huge factor in how I'm trying to change a little of my Approach intent. Focused campaigns are what has made Google ads. So powerful. But it's changing innovatively and so we are Advising for this huge change. Not convinced audiences are where it's at though. Hmm. Robert goes that. Begs the questions. If audiences aren't worth its at what is where it's at, girl responds.

7:13 That's the question for sure. Because at the end of the day, we're trusting that Google builds audiences based off intent and inquiries in the first place, right? I do think there's a way to not entirely rely upon audiences and still get in front of the right fix and Ashton carcass. Well response to question one saying we typically based are targeting on the clients goals their ideal. Customer personas and top priority locations from there. We do keyword audience, research and follow the data to finalize our targeting criteria and camping structure. Julia. Vice responds saying that we get into audience and targeting at the planning stage of a lot of our traffic sheets are built based on mapping platforms audiences to people, we need to reach.

7:56 Oh wow, loads of answers for question. One day I heard You find that useful and I'd wonder whether you have a different way of targeting. Let us know, Julie takes us on to question 2. Now saying, has your process for targeting changed in the last few years either. How you think about it or how you actually set it up within platforms? I think that chat, I believe it was between Robert, Brady and gildner do talk in terms of how things have changed where it was just a keyword intent base, but then you have to think about audiences more. Now, because really response to question 2 saying yes, my boy Chart and time allows it inside platforms. I like to use broader keywords, not always broad match their to mine for data and identify the high relevant and highly valuable.

8:40 CVR a conversion rate, Search terms, he continues. I then lay audiences on to the broad keywords while using the newly mind terms as tighter keywords, not always exact match with no audience restrictions. The audience's used are determined by client insights and the data collected. While in observation mode and giggle no response question to sin keywords are vastly different. Now the way we research is changing entirely so now we're basically going back to marketing 101 in a way with an outsized emphasis on brand awareness while making sure we capture all remaining intent. Based searches guy no response to question 2 saying it has changed a little in the sense.

9:23 I noticed going very narrow or segmented. Doesn't make a big difference anymore instead of creating huge Audience lists. Now, it seems to be more important to give few but good signals to the campaign so it can expand from there. Travis response saying search based targeting changed with Google's mood goalpost. We have new broad phrase, exact plus semantic match types. Demand gen evolved also platform driven to require better inputs, creative audience, signals, trust and algorithms to find the right folks, to much trusting algorithms. Glenn response to question to send echoing. What? As I've said about audience creeping into such platforms when talking to prospective clients questions on existing audience list.

10:07 Now, brought to the fore, no longer work. We'll get to that later, dark Mullins response, ensure especially on social or display more focus on the creative. And letting the system learn what works than selecting and targeting audiences. And then we have Melissa McKee responding to question 2 saying, speaking, about search specifically audiences have become a Not have instead of a nice to have and you need to think outside the box for audiences, not just the obvious choices audiences. Also are a signal for smart bidding. Julia voice response to question 2. Seen its expanded, the underlying logic is the same, but the in platform setup, has evolved and never Hopkins response to question 2. Seen absolutely, however, the core strategy Remains the Same mechanically.

10:53 I now one cry over the loss of similar audiences and instead use custom intent, Is to focus competitors to factor in the baked in audiences, in Broad match. Thread is, she hasn't she continues? Three, have an honest conversation with clients about how much visual content that they need for their desired market and whether their best people want visual versus text for proactive, exclusions at the start of the campaign. Five, I think of keywords as audiences, interesting, she continues, I no longer cling to the analytics audiences, if I have small accounts, It's much better to use custom intent ones, and let competitors pay for the data seven.

11:35 Social ads are no longer. The hyper Target Champions creative has to be applicable for many. Mmm for many. But how about just applicable for the audience's? I'm not sure about that. I don't know hey many views to all these changes we're saying phrase Andrews response question too soon. Have found that approach targeting has changed dramatically with the changes in platforms, example ga Had a big impact on the collating data of audiences. Also think that purges around Facebook audiences data had hampered results. Reva response in audiences are more important even when using keyword, because Google is using the match types, much more liberally and I agree with everybody in terms of this audiences and I really want to now, do a poem and that's going to be probably my next Tuesday pool in terms of, you know, audiences.

12:25 How important are there. How much do you use them? I want to find. A good way of posing that question. Wait, actually instills a great conversation from my connections Arriva. Mink of also continue seeing lots of observational audiences to collect data, no harm and they can be helpful and really gives another answer to question 2 saying, doing a lot of search advertising, the whole evolution of the role of the keyword continues to shake things up. It's harder to only target very high intent, High converting keywords without also getting noise traffic bad. Saying stopping waste and new Ops is tough, Tim Jensen, response to that saying. I think this accurately reflects one of the biggest shifts in recent years as others have commented as well.

13:11 Micro-targeting just isn't viable anymore in many cases. So thinking towards a broader targeting plus the right exclusions or copy gating is more important. Julie response, which for new advertisers is as much of a loss as it straight stablish, advertisers who have mountains of data and history? You on what works converts on? What does not the machines of today? Just can't replicate or replace the piece now, Hopkins response in. I really think it's a matter of letting go of the keyword as a fixed entity. And instead embracing that our core work is an exclusions to protect our best keywords or audience Champions and Julie goes, I hear you. I feel like institutional loss and clients are not interested in paying the machines to relearn. Stuff that already figured out and paid for Is definitely an education and contextualization process. Not sure if anyone else has had conversations with clients who basically say we have a really good idea of what works on Google ads.

14:11 Why can't we just run things? Like we successfully have 4X time period. Yeah like usual a long time. Period. That is a fully legit question. In my opinion for which Google has no answer, Julia Vasquez. I mean, the answer could be Google cares about Google and not you or your business, but that discussion depends on your relationship. Ship and the client, I'm at Lambert goes. This does summarize, the changes it has been puzzling. Why odds are worse than organic search results, Google gave away analytics. So they know what works and why I get more profits by sharing value around to remove data so that you can't train a eye on it. Obvious case, in my honest opinion, Todd Miller goes noise. Indeed, just had to explain this very thing to someone phrase match is more noise.

14:57 Now for me than ever and then Ashton Clark. Most question to say and I don't think it's changed too much for us on the platform Side by definitely approach it differently with clients instead of trying to figure it out, mostly on our own. I'll ask for more detailed info upfront, like sales sheets, buyer, personas, Etc. I think that is also very true. We do a lot. More of what is actually working in the sales. Those conversations are more prevalent, we don't just do the whole, we'll just drive traffic to your site and see what sticks we're very much about, would they lie? Leads, are they converting into quality, you know, Revenue quality customers Quality Sales and then we use that information to then inform our targeting that I think, definitely has changed a lot and then we have Julie taken us on to question 3.

15:46 Saying are you using first-party data in any of your targeting is? So how and on which platforms first-party data difficult to do? But I think it's something we need to start doing right now, and we're going to be talking About. Although using that first party data at PPC live, you care. The next one on the 25th of May. So yes not too long there. Go get your tickets, we will be increasing the prices of the tickets from next week. Anyway, that's a little tangent there Crusher, early response to question three saying, yes, we're using first-party data for audience exclusions in some of our Google ads accounts and then some Google analytics segment to Google ads, count as fpd. The first party data is that acronym that Chris's using Gil Gil.

16:29 The response saying yes. Absolutely except for clients and jurisdictions or verticals which restrict this heavily Travis respond saying absolutely use hashed customer data whenever available version one manually, periodically download from CRM, CMS, reformat upload, add a CSV to audiences in Google ads. Version to push segments from clavier, especially to Google ads for a live, always updated audiences. Love this new method. Dinah Lena says I mainly use first-party data lists on Google customer lists work as signals and performance Max or leads from gated content case. Studies webinars in Upper funnels with the intent of warming them up Slobodan response in. Absolutely, especially since it enhances smart bidding by adding that ski signal mostly I either manually download and add it from various crms or try to synchronize it with tools, like klaviyo or Zappa Via Russia responding yes. Using CDP to send custom attributes and we have Julie advice responded to question three saying, very little, but aiming to bring more in later.

17:40 This year, first party in public sector isn't really a thing and Melissa Markey response to question. 3 saying, first party audiences, can be surprisingly tough for B2B advertisers, they'll come to us and say we have a list of 100 people. Can we use that size is a problem as our matter? It's Tim Jensen response saying yes on all major platforms wherever possible Danna goes. I mainly use first-party data lists on Google customer list to work as signals in pmags or leads from gated content case studies webinars in Upper funnels with the intent of warming them up on social, I use them to create localized. That's an interesting strategy and never goes. Absolutely.

18:25 We are enhanced conversions or the best and targeting on conversion. And values is crucial. That said it's been really interesting to see which clients cared about GA for backups and who is coasting interesting and Julia herself response to question. 3 saying have done some work with first-party data for clients, but I always bring up liability when we talk about using first-party data and strongly encourage them to get their policies and terms in before diving in too deep, it is advertisers Who is liable now? Yeah, advertisers I've definitely liable and then she continues. Make sure you have language in your contracts about clients being fully responsible for any first-party data, that is provided and or used on ad platforms clearly state that you're relying on them getting permission, talk to your Biz insurance, agent about this too.

19:20 And then Ashton Clark response to question 3 saying yes, mostly for retargeting campaigns as well as excluding existing customers or leads on Google. Ads, Microsoft advertising and Linkedin and Julie takes us on to question for saying, which platforms have the best targeting options, currently in your opinion. And why? I think with the keyword I definitely say Google ads on Microsoft, Chris agrees with this say as I'm 90% Google ads and 10% Microsoft. As I'm going to go with Microsoft ads for B2B purely for the LinkedIn profile targeting options, which marketing surf highlighted in her most recent shuffled, DM talk girl gonna respond. In good targeting, Google Bing LinkedIn, Twitter Reddit, bad targeting Pinterest, Facebook, or I interesting than the liner goes Google as it's a very diverse.

20:12 I love custom segments, more precisely and how targeted you can get with them and then there is LinkedIn for all its job-related audiences. If they weren't so expensive, I was going to say the expense of it though. Travis response saying so long as Google preserves some semblance of keyword targeting. There's no other probablistic targeting that comes close. Accuracy is highest. When customers raise their own hands? Self-identity skill is finite skill. So cold Adam and Jen will always be necessary Rush respond saying good targeting Google LinkedIn. So so targeting Bing, bad Facebook, Instagram interesting, Angela voice response to a question forcing. I mean best I like Google keywords plus audience layer, I like Tick-Tock interest plus followers, I Pinterest and Linkedin for specificity in more abstract audiences. Even Spotify targeting is pretty great. No fall on best anymore in my opinion. So yeah, she likes some.

21:13 But best is hard for her to pinpoint with that one. Now the response question for as well. So this is going to seem like it comes out of nowhere, but Amazon is pretty fantastic for targeting options, interesting after them. But Google ads on Microsoft advertising are pretty robust. I'm not. A fan of how hit-and-miss, Facebook is Facebook and Instagram taking the hit over here and Julie, advice response to never saying, you are not wrong. I imagine that even in response to mostly the talk about Amazon coming out of nowhere. Really, I'd say, and Julia herself response to question forcing Google ads. It's still probably the best or most direct for targeting.

21:54 Microsoft, rise and mostly succeeds LinkedIn. Unrivaled for Biz targets Twitter. And Facebook messy. I also like Korra in the right situation Quest. Goes I've never used core of advertising, what verticals and business times, do you use it for Julie goes it works best for businesses, where their type of product or services are already being talked about. Done it for IT services, business Consulting, and education, Sam skills. They're still not another media channel that comes close on. Capturing demand in the market come close to. What would you do to talk about Google ads? Sorry that. That seems to be a confusing tweet. Syngenta response. Wow, complex or Nuance question based on what I'm trying to accomplish with agree with others who ranked Google and Linkedin towards the top hair.

22:41 John Kagan respond saying. I truly love Microsoft advertising LinkedIn targeting but it struggles due to volume. Yeah the volume issue is definitely a big issue and has an interesting thread hair of still on question for after Chris had said that I'm 90% Google ads and 10% much stuff out. I'm going to go with Microsoft as for B2B purely, for the LinkedIn profile targeting options, Melissa goes. I love the LinkedIn targeting in Microsoft, but volume is so low. It's hardly worth it. Plus you get all the bad of Ms and like, Audience, Network and crappy matching. I still give Google the Nord hair and Chris goes. When it comes to volume, Google ads is King. I also think Microsoft ads, LinkedIn profile targeting is limited on the options.

23:26 Available smaller businesses. Don't show up when Trying to Target businesses, but I still think it's great. If you can work with the volume provided Julie goes, as we all keep a dreaming of the day when Microsoft ads and Linkedin just fully merged into one big, beautiful, B2B. And a Marketplace Tim goes, I'm honestly surprised they didn't move towards combining the platform sooner, I'm sure there are plenty of organizational reasons why but it would be such a win for advertisers and for them, Julie goes. Well for one thing, it would likely be difficult to maintain the high LinkedIn cpc's if they merged. I also Imagine there are massive infrastructure barriers and AD revenue is not a top priority for Microsoft either.

24:13 I don't think it is and Melissa goes. I wonder if there's a regulatory reason, they haven't done it yet. Seems like such a win-win. So, yeah, guys, what do you think? Why hasn't Microsoft ads and Linkedin? Much the old idea of LinkedIn CPC has been quite expensive And Linkedin, not wanted to let go of. That is probably I'd say a big reason because Microsoft ads are known for their very low cpcs. And, but, yeah, what do you think? Could it be any other reason? Like, maybe regulatory as someone said that, I forget who it was Ashton clock. Response question for saying, being mostly in the btb and Lead gen space. We have the most success with LinkedIn and Google ads, keyword, and custom audiences, on my favorite options on Google and Linkedin. G value is in the vast.

24:59 About of combinations and exclusions that we can use. So Julie, then takes us on to question 5, what is your biggest ad targeting frustration? And for that question, Melissa McKee jumps, right? On it answering saying the lack of be to be targeting options in most platforms, other than LinkedIn, keyword ambiguity inside that only gotten worse. Although, if you can find the right audiences and layer them, keyword targeting has actually gotten better. Chris has will respond saying Shrinking data pull for Search terms and the ever losing settings for match types. I understand why audience targeting has been limited for GDP are reasons and privacy. But when I see screenshots of 60% of Search terms being listed as other, it's scares me.

25:47 Yeah, 60% that's a lot dandeli. No goes, I don't have something that frustrates been an incident came to mind. The fact you cannot retarget an audience of video viewers on LinkedIn unless it has More than 300 users. By doesn't give you any insight on how close you are to that number. That is really interesting. Travis response. I am making my peace with fewer targets and controls. They are still paths to success, the lack of actionable data or targeting insights. Drives me mad Google with holes because they don't exist or they would lead advertisers to spend in ways less profitable to Google with the mink of Response saying, I find audience overlaps to be so frustrating. It's hard to know which audience was the one that made the difference.

26:38 Nate Lewis response saying, such times close variance, so much wasted at spend. We had a customer that cancel Google ads this week who had twenty three clicks and three hundred and ninety-four dollars spent on Search keywords we wanted to bid on versus 57 clicks and 1052 dollars spend on such terms. Did not want to bid on, that's an interesting Dynamic there. And then you lavash response, question facing location. Exclusions and detailed audience. Exclusions across platforms and of course, clients who wants to measure awareness campaigns with traffic goals by. Don't think Google can solve that never Hopkins response saying The Accidental industry flagging. That causes targets to come across as a violation of policy. I don't mind playing by the rules. I do mind when I do play.

27:29 Play by the rules and get flagged anyway. Also audience size too small, Tim goes. Yes. And when the exact same ads get flagged again, when you make the slightest change to your targeting, I mean, if you've already made the request and you've obviously already being passed for the targeting the year using. Yeah, you really shouldn't be penalized again. Tim Jensen response to question five saying, keeping track of constant changes in what we can or can't Target. Lack of understanding of actual in. 10th in many cases, come on a, I get it together now because I'm ten thousand percent agree with your second one. It's silly when the intent gets all wonky and we pay a premium for the wrong audience. Ah, Lord, I'll be annoying.

28:15 Julie goes, honestly, it is probably the whole just tell us your dreams and let us figure it out. Mantra of the platform's, I want a better mixture of business inputs, with the power of a bajillion and data point. Within the platform data. But Jillian datapoints, I love that and yeah and respond to Tim Jensen where he was saying, lack of understanding of actual intent. In many cases and never going ten thousand percent agree with your second one. It's silly when they intend gets all wonky and we pay a premium for the wrong audience. Julie goes, I will say it again, please. Oh, please Google ads. Give us a matching feedback mechanism if we have to rely on the machines more and more to understand intent. Let us Help train them.

29:00 It's a win-win. Absolutely, we need to train the AI because it's genius, but it's a very young genius. It's a young Sheldon is what I like to put it as never how Koreans respond saying. I would love them to put in a system like L, essays have where we can ask for credit back when the lead is Spam, watch how quickly the matching improves and Robert Brady response to question five saying, despite my best Target in efforts still seem spam conversions, obviously fake Khalid data being submitted who is out there, submitting spam leads to pump up the conversion rates on their junk search partner sites. Way, ha ha ha and wow with that comes out to the end of our chat today.

29:43 After that, very interested answer from Robert Brady, we've gotten some very interesting chat about targeting today and how we do it and keywords and audiences and with platforms are doing it well not doing it well and you know, best case scenario what we wish for I think that's the only thing that maybe Julie didn't ask that she usually would ask and maybe it's just because we ran out of time. In terms of if we had a crystal ball, what we would like it to be like and we'll who knows. We might bring that up as a chat point on Thursday at 12 p.m. eastern Time. 5 p.m. GMT on Twitter spaces where she'll be continuing this conversation. So you have anything to add? If there's anything that we missed out of Pawn, please join us on Thursday, for any feedback about the podcast, or maybe, Even some correction on anything that has been shed. Do get in touch with me on my Twitter, my DMs are open on the handle, the marketing, a new or LinkedIn. We have a PPC, chat Roundup podcast group would love to hear your thoughts about what we share today. We're also be great for long-standing members, a brand new listeners to give the podcast a review or rating or really help with the growth strategy. And for people to realize that it is a podcast worth listening to be.

30:56 Also great for my motivation. So that when I come back from holiday at, let's say 6:00 a.m. in the morning and go straight into work. I have motivated to record Another podcast like I did today, and this has definitely been fun, but yeah, please go to the link. Tree.com /p P c-- chat on the score round up. That's linked. Three.com /p P c-- chat on the school ground up. And also, as I mentioned earlier on, we've got PPC live. UK coming for its sixth edition. On the 25th of May. We've got Four speakers. We're going to be talking about Microsoft you know that we touched on. We're going to talk about first party data which we also touched upon today and we're going to be talking about you know, conversion rate and you know frequency of add ads being shown to customers and yeah some other topics, some other interesting topics.

31:49 So I hope you join us for that. Just go to PC live UK.com to get your tickets. Finally remember for your campaigns and businesses to Glide smoothly. There's a a lot of hard work needed beneath the surface, so keep your swans kicking by and speak to you next week.