EP228 - Programmatic Advertising

0:00 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the PPC Tat Roundup. In today's episode we have Julie taken us on a topic of programmatic advertising and she has is joined by Mark Poibrier. I always get his name, pronounce his name wrong, Another cookie. The cookie crumbles. So yeah, Mark Poire. So that's poi RIER. There's so many eyes in there, One too many eyes for me that trips my tongue. But anyway, she's we're joined by Mark as well as Ellen Ellen Parker. She is also a programmatic ninja out of the US. I love following her. She's got a podcast. I forget the name, but go and check out Helen Parker. Is her handle is I am Helen.

0:47 Helen with an H but the the H is silent. But yeah, she's got the programmatic digest podcast. If you want to learn about programmatic, I really high highly recommend that you listen to her podcast and yeah, she joins the chat as well. It was such a shame I didn't join it live because we had changed clocks. The clock has gone back one an hour last week so when I thought it was 5:00 the chat had already happened. So it actually happened today at 4:00 PM GMT time or BST time or GMT time. Oh Lord, I'm confused with all the clocks changing. But anyway, I missed it live. But it's so great to be able to do this recap and to hear all the amazing people talking about it.

1:29 Even if I had joined I would have been larking anyway. So because programmatic is not my Forte, so excited to hear all the amazing advice given by the community today. So yeah, hope you enjoy. Hello and a warm welcome to this episode of the PPC Chat Roundup, a podcast where I round up the Twitter discussion that happens on Tuesdays at 5:00 PM GMT. I'm your host Anu and I'm recording from my studio back in London, UK and I use this platform to share not just expert but also my ideas and considered best practices about paid media and the direction the digital industry is going in.

2:14 So if you want to keep up to date with my tips and tricks in the industry and get the latest on the podcast that has been called your go to, even if you don't make it to the PPC chat, live discussions and even if you do, then like a follow, share and retweet on that right Twitter with my handle the marketing anu Or join us in our LinkedIn group which is the PPC Chat Roundup podcast. Or if you're on Instagram, why don't you check us out at PPC Chat under score roundup to get quotes and snippets from previous episodes. So yeah, we have Julie with Mark and Ellen Parker. I give her an honorary Co hosting or Co leading the chat today because she is a programmatic ninja taking us on the topic of programmatic advertising.

2:59 Because yeah, PVC chat is not just about paid search. It's not just about Google ads or Microsoft ads. It encompasses everything that has to do with paid media, as usual. Yeah, Julie takes us on saying that, you know, welcome everybody. Thank you for joining us on this chat. First, how are we doing? We have several fantastic experts to join us today with Julia, Vice joins us as well as Ashton Clark, Steve Gibson, Tim Halloran as well joins us. Daniel Voddy as well joins us. Clever programmatic is it? Oh, yes. We've got some programmatic powerhouses in the house here. Dog art. Thomas as well joins us. Well, yeah. Before we get to the question, we'll start with Julie's usual PS:. A saying, yeah, before we get into the questions, This chat is intended for PPC professionals of all levels. So if you have something you want to share, please do. We are a friendly and supportive community. Please don't be afraid to participate. Lurkers, as well as just the listeners of the podcast as well are always welcome for sure.

4:02 So yeah, we've got Julie then taking us on straight into question one saying, yeah, we're going to start with a few questions for all and then get to the questions for Mark. What does the term programmatic advertising mean to you? I think it's a fancy word for display advertising. And when I don't mean fancy, like, oh OK, it's not no difference, but programmatic is more. Maybe not fancy is not the right word, but more advanced version of display, more advanced version of GDA and Google Display Network, where you can do it by not just by impressions being by impressions, but also paying by click. And I'd imagine more quality, the kind of sites that you're going to be looking at. And it's not just display, not just sites online. You can buy TV ads programmatically now, but exactly what you mean by programmatically. I I imagine that you pay you're you can more pay more towards what you're going to receive from it. And not just paying for a display. Probably totally wrong.

5:03 But let's see what Ellen replies to that. So yeah, Ellen goes. Programmatic means automated. Programmatic advertising is automated. Ad placements. I like to define it as such. We use a tech to automate ad placements on inventory outside of social the same way we use Facebook tech to automate placement in Facebook. So yes, there is the proper answer instead of like the very unknowledgeable answer that I gave signal mine, Daniel Varney goes the future of marketing is what programmatic advertising is. I am actually expecting Google met and other social platforms will be forced to open up auctions to other platforms because of legislation. Ellen goes, whoa, that is a serious projection. They did so once before and the Cpm's where oh and she does a sick emoji, so maybe not a great idea. Actor response response programmatic is basically PMAX plus audio ads on different advertising platforms. Some marketers consider it a more advanced form of advertising because of the available inventory, but at the core it uses the same advertising principles. Steve Gibson goes a display network where they they use some tech to match your ads to content. So yeah, some like is display but more advanced version. So I'd say that that's a part of the answer that I gave that is valid.

6:24 You can throw away the rest. Mark Mark responds to question one saying to me in a slightly exaggerated way, it just means advertising. Outside the PPC world, programmatic is pretty much everywhere except on paper. We haven't solved for that yet. Yes, Imagine Stephie K Gali K Gauls even responds to question one saying for me it means buying a quantity of display ads at a guaranteed CPM on different display networks other than Google, while harnessing the power of machine learning to find the most receptive audience. So yeah, programmatic has been using automation since the beginning of time. It's all about automating and machine learning. Yeah, we can't get away from that, can we?

7:07 And then Steve Gibson responds to question one saying, yeah, a display network where they use some tech to match your ads to content. And then Julie herself responds saying, yeah, to me, programmatic advertising means display advertising, but at a different level than the Google Display Network. It's more sophisticated and placements are of better quality. Historically, hasn't been super accessible to small advertisers, but that's changing, especially with, yeah, freelancers and the small agencies, Ashton Clarke responds, saying. I've never done programmatic advertising, but have always thought of it as basically being a more advanced version of display. Same here, but then Julie takes us on to question two. Saying that are you currently managing any programmatic advertising for your clients or brands? If so, what platforms are you using? Before we go to that Doug Art Thomas response to question one saying programmatic is buying through a platform to show on 3rd party publishers.

8:05 Using that definition, Google Display is programmatic, but most of Google Search wouldn't be. Facebook ads generally aren't programmatic, but Fan is FAN. Facebook Advertising Network, I assume is that what that acronym is? Mark also responds. I'm not sure whether this is for question one or question two. I think it's question one still. Yeah, programmatic is everywhere. Besides online display and video in game ads, in app ads and native ads, it's also huge business on TV and CTV. It's an emerging method for out of home advertising. And don't forget audio, radio, podcast advertising. I meet as well response question once and I've always understood it as display ads, but on a more advanced complex level. Then Julie takes us on to question two, saying are you currently managing any programmatic advertising for your clients or brands?

8:59 If so, what platforms are you using? And Daniel Varrigo's using STACK Adapt as our agency preferred platform but have some legacy on Trade Desk. We found for the most part programmatic platforms are similar. We liked stack adapts, customer service, no main budget required over and over a certain amount of budget help on creative Steve Gibson goes only Google display. Hector goes yes, I've used so many of them for small budgets to test like DV360, trade desk, trade desk, ad mob, et cetera, as well as ad roll. OK oh does she mean ad role instead of AdMob? Marcus said well said yes.

9:40 Oh yes, that's all we do. And we use many platforms depending on what our clients need. Trade decks, Google DV360, several other more specialized these Sp's too. Ali Mukadan responds to question two saying our team uses Amazon DSP, Media Math, Pragmatic Adx to name a few for different clients. Personally, I prefer GDN. And then we have Dave Gallegos responding to question two saying stack adapt and then we have Julie herself responding to question two saying, yeah, I don't really consider GDN to be programmatic, but technically it is. So I guess I am doing programmatic and then we have Bill Scott responding to what Julie had just said saying, yes, GDN was the OG pro of programmatic. Programmatic is for lazy people trying to do what an expert does.

10:32 Ooh, I feel that's a little bit of fighting talking there, Bill. Ali Mukadam responds saying them if we go, by definition, yes, absolutely 100. So guessing, yeah, GDN is considered as programmatic, can be considered as programmatic. Mark responds saying, Oh yes to question two saying that's all we do and we use many platforms depending on what our clients need. The Trade Desk, Google DV360 and several other more specialized DSP's. To Julia, Vice responds, yes, we use a few partners including our brands, programmatic product. Tim Halloran responds saying yes, I've been dabbling in simply dot FI, so SIMPLI dot FI because of their geofencing and addressable audience capabilities. I ran a couple campaigns on Stack Adapt earlier in the year and try to use a few others in the past with mixed results. Ashton a response question to say Nope, always done to always down to test though I love the way that he's part of conversation even though, yeah, he doesn't have much experience in it.

11:38 Always good to hear from Ashton Delgar, Thomas response to question two saying I have in the past, I've sort of decoupled from this recently pushing more for individual publisher buys. If this place is the right call, Tim Halloran responds to question one saying what it means to me. Top of my head. Same thing as regular PPC, but better or different or unique targeting options. Because of a mix of data providers and publishers you may not get from other standard platforms, Sometimes premium placements you can't get elsewhere and then Ellen responds. Question two saying I've seen quite a few answers with some dope Dsp's.

12:20 All excellent choices. It comes down to what and how we want to service our client. I've trained teams in most of the DSP mentioned. Love it, Daniel Vadhi responds saying I've always seen a time where Google keeps taken away levers and insights. Programmatic actually has a lot more to offer than Google ads. Overall I found programmatic to be more nimble and adjust to the deprecation of a third party cookies and that's in the conversation of where Amit had said I've always understood it as display ads but not on a more advanced level and as well joins the conversation saying I agree Daniel, Google Display Networks holds a small piece of the pie.

13:00 There are over 30 + S SP's or ad exchange in the ecosystem. Most offer enough measurement and transparency which is not always in GDN. Tim goes same. They never completely relied on cookies in the 1st place so their value isn't directly tied to its demise. Dave goes this so yeah always worth testing these these guys out. Julian takes us on to question three, saying what is your biggest challenge of frustration when it comes to programmatic advertising And I have not tested it yet and I'm not sure I'll know how to. Yeah, dive into it, Daniel Voddi goes. For me, it would be more how to measure the impact of programmatic. At the end of the day at scale, we're still mostly talking about display, CTV, audio, et cetera, prospecting. You still need to have a solid plan of testing and measuring. Ali responds saying we do find some spam traffic coming through programmatic.

13:55 It's true for GDN as well, and the belief that could be wrong that programmatic cannot be leveraged for performance, maybe because it wasn't supposed to in the 1st place. It's a response to that. Saying yes, invalid clicks and irrelevant traffic is one of the biggest issues I face when I run ads on GDN, Pmax or other native or programmatic platforms. Curious, how do you avoid getting this again? You might hear me saying GDN, PMAX, GDN is Google Display Network, PMAX is performance Max campaigns. But again, go on officialppcchat.com, go under resources and you'll see all the acronyms we're going to be talking about here. Mark as well responds to Hector going, yeah. We use a combination of AI provided by the top tier Dsps like TTD, Yahoo, DSP and DV360 for example and senior traders, human intelligence to prevent irrelevant impressions. It's a never ending battle, Hector goes. Do you also get traffic from countries that are usually OFAC sanctioned like in Google, what is OFAC? Someone please Google that please. Last time I was running for a Fortune 500 and they got an attack from a competitor where they were getting huge traffic and conversions from countries that you can't exclude and earlier his response to that as well saying I'm not sure exactly or you mean by being by an attack from a competitor. However, the default targeting settings should always be people in or regularly in your

15:26 targeting locations. But instead of people interested in your targeted locations, interested in interested is default setting. Yeah, it goes. So there are events where your competitors will buy traffic from locations like Iraq or Iran. They're usually bots who click on your ads and exhaust your budgets and fill random details in lead Gen. campaigns. This traffic, you can't exclude them in any way due to OFACS or OFAC. That is interesting for people. Yeah, people trying to that's that's a very bad way of doing programmatic. Well like should I call it blackout and he call him Black Hat anything bad black something. But yeah sounds very dodgy way of companies doing programmatic. I really hate to hear things like that. My whole response to question two saying currently no. But in the past I have used DV360 Stack Adapt and Trade Desk.

16:23 So yeah, if you want to get into the programmatic DV360 stack, adapt trade desk. Those have been mentioned several times. Tim Halloran responds to question three about the challenges and frustrations. Biggest challenge, Tim goes. Either it's too easy Kitty gloves or it's too difficult. Complex Ui's large learning curve, easy self-serve, take away part of its value because it categorizes and simplifies when you'd rather have more personalization and insight. And then we have yeah, de Gallegos responded to question 3 going up. I've worked with bigger clients with budgets available but the entry point for Smb's might be tough. Facebook or Google definitely make it easier to enter at a lower budget amount. No, day one trade desk for them and we have Mark as well responded to question 3C.

17:13 And I'd say the biggest challenge is the fragmentation of the ecosystem. It's also our biggest opportunity as an independent programmatic trading desk. Complexity creates a barrier to entries that we take away for advertisers and agencies. So yeah, we have issues with the publisher. It has it's an opportunity for you know if you have a small business you want to start in the business to make that as an opportunity as a as a solution that you have for clients. We had then have Ashton Clark going to a responded to question three saying, yeah, someone who's never run programmatic ads. A challenge would be not knowing where to start. I've heard about programmatic for years, but it seems like a better fit for large businesses and not as much for S MB's which is primarily who we work with. And then Daniel Voddy responds saying, yeah, I'd agree here, I think programmatic sometimes make it sound more complex than it actually is.

18:07 I don't know if by design or not and therefore unapproachable, traditionally there was also the minimum budget barrier, Daniel goes. It's like when you go to a club and you see the VIP section. It seems like a good idea, but all of them look like they're miserable and actually want to party with everyone else. Programmatic needs to come down and dance, right? I love that analogy. So does Ashton. And he goes, it does seem intimidating, but we're trying to be better about testing new platforms and channels. And I think programmatic is a big one to try out. Today's discussion has definitely helped make it seem a little less daunting. Elling also responds to that to Ashton going, I would say I can understand the initial investment can be daunting.

18:49 Programmatic is an excellent complete compliment to what you're doing for you Smb's, I've seen it happen and have consulted Smb's to get started. I get it. Acting goes ice. Would still love to test it. We usually default to display or social if a client wants to test more awareness focused campaigns, mainly because of the assumption that there's a bigger cost for programmatic like you said, plus a learning curve on my end, Ellen goes, I believe in you it can be done. The hardest part of the learning journey is simply taking the first step. I love Ellen's you know, use of really pointing out her expertise, our expertise through this chat.

19:29 Yes, the more great answers she gives her. Lawrence as well say says to question twos and I've not used it in what I would like Chile called programmatic because I don't think Google Display network really meets the definition of programmatic. Delgar Thomas goes three big areas for me in terms of the biggest challenges. This is an answer to question 3 targeting. How do we beat the roughly for 45% average match rate inventory, How do we manage the cesspool of low quality inventory positioning? What makes 1D SP better than another actor responds to that saying? I would say bidding as well, especially when you are starting to test for different steps of a funnel and not sure what is the best. Entry point.

20:14 And then, yeah, we then have the questions from the community where for question 4, Judy goes, what questions do you have for Mark about programmatic advertising? And as you'll see, this is not just questions from Mark, but also Ellen as well. I love it. Yeah. And she goes, some of you sent questions ahead of today. So we'll do as many of them and we'll try to get to them. So yeah, what are some of those questions? But before that, we've also got, yeah, Ellen going, her biggest challenges to answer. Question three are one, initial investment, 2 measurement, although much more advanced can become fragmented 3. Inventory transparency, mainly due to lack of transparency from some vendors for fraud or brand safety risk.

20:57 These are the most commonly discussed stuff. And yeah, I agree with that. When she came on the PVC Track Roundup podcast, where we were also talking about programmatic, one of the biggest areas that we were talking about was the, you know, the risk of an ad showing against, you know, sites that are inciting either hate or war or crimes or that kind of thing or maybe even pornography kind of stuff. And have some there not enough measurements to ensure that your ads don't show against those sites or even some like viral news that comes about comes of course, you know maybe a death of a celebrity or maybe Elon Mask stuff you might not be wanting to show against some news that are just not relevant to what you're doing. So yeah, all those things in place to ensure that there's brand safety and it prevents risk. A lot of work needs to be done in that area in my opinion. And so yeah, we've also got to John Kagan responded to question three saying when the clients asked me for a screenshot of their ads.

21:58 So, yeah, biggest challenges there. Me then have Julie going. Yeah, a question from Tony Zara for Mark as well as Ellen. What do you see as the best use cases for programmatic for Google advertisers? Ellen goes, I would add audience and tactics, targeting, augmentation, breaking out of the Google shell to increase reach and impact. And yes, it can be measured and performance can be proven. That's where additional measurement tech can be added. Julie then goes, when you say additional measurement tech can be added, do you mean that a third party tool is something that is needed to fully measure programmatic performance? And if so, what are you using for this? Ellen responds to that saying you can measure programmatic without third party.

22:43 You will need to add them once you speak of overall view on performance between multiple channels, especially you when you run outside of DSP. Think showing row or row as between social set and PRG and cut goes any recommendation that any recommended third party measurement platforms. Understanding each has its gaps and advantages. Ellen goes great question. I hate to answer by saying this, what are we doing for our clients? What's the goal? Why will this measurement vendor help us prove for our clients then understand what types are available, they are post verification or versus pre bid partners. There are some great ones, some are specialized by industries, others have AI support.

23:28 Measurement is important because it helps us show performance. So how easy is it to read reporting, post campaigns, things like that. And then, yeah, Mark also then a response about the best use cases for programmatic and he goes, yeah, another strategy is to augment or optimize GDN reach, which can have meaningful impact on results sometimes finally, which can have meaningful impact on results sometimes finally. And perhaps the most obvious and familiar thing Google advertisers can do of course is retargeting users on a much larger network than just GDN, he continues. Many ways to make a programmatic work for Google advertisers, higher value strategies usually revolve around reach and awareness or driving tonnage.

24:14 Once you've reached a plateau, harvesting existing demand, you have to create it. And that's where programmatic shines. And then Julie takes us on to question six, which I believe is the last question of the chat saying that, yeah, what are the biggest differences between the traditional PPC and programmatic advertising? Mark goes, yeah, in my view, one bottom of funnel demand harvesting versus top of funnel awareness and demand building, 2 diversity of data options, tools and channels. 3. Increasing opaque hosted auction versus transparent real time auction for tracking. Where in programmatic, one can track, post click and post view activity within a campaign, which expands and complements the previously mentioned diversity of data options, tools and channels.

25:06 And Julie also then gives another question from Tony Zara saying how can smaller advertisers on board and activate data. Judy Mark starts off saying that there are two main parts to on board and activate data for smaller advertisers. The 1st is almost always to install and configure a pixel on the web properties to start building audiences of web visitors. Mark then continues saying the second path is to upload or provide a feed of custom audience emails or mobile numbers into a platform such as live ramp for example. There are costs associated with the latter, so it wouldn't apply to tiny advertisers usually. Julie then continues replies to that thing. I will also add this for uploading customer data and Smb's, please make sure you have permission to use customer or potential customer data in this way. Platforms want us to upload with reckless abandon, but we need to be careful as liability is now on us. Slash the advertisers.

26:08 Yeah, Julie goes, I'm going to going to keep beating this Trump because it is so important. Get with your legal advisor to review your terms and privacy policies. Policies consultants and agencies. Review your contract language to make sure you're not taking on liability. Client customer data market price. Indeed, legislation is already in place for multiple countries and states, and it won't stop anytime soon, Julie goes. I'm on a mission to make sure businesses and PPC providers understand this. The platforms gloss right over this hugely important and potentially expensive issue because they want and need this data to be given to them by advertisers.

26:51 And Doug goes there. I struggle with this a lot. So many privacy policies aren't worth the kilobytes they take up. And it absolutely is on us as the knowledge have us to say, wait, we need to update the privacy policy. But what's? But that's a whole new set of conversations. Not sure of the right path, Julie goes. Most don't even come close to what they need. Now, I am not an attorney, so I can't get that specific, but I am absolutely starting the conversations with the brands I work with so they can talk with their legal people. Sometimes I do too to explain stuff and actor as well responds to this saying that what are the things that we have to keep in mind while using first party customer data for targeting and creating custom audiences by uploading on ad platforms.

27:41 We do use the state of advertising by I'm sure it has restrictions to use it that way. And I had actor also giving a question well for Mark Walter Ellen where she went. If you have to choose platforms for programmatic, what are the factors you would consider for specific types of businesses at a specific location? Selling a specific product assuming that the specific is X hair and it can change with different scenarios. Elling response. Saying I would add what's the goal? Look at one what type of Kpi's are important to client, therefore what the DSP needs to offer to inventory transparency, GDN, lack of visibility on where things are served.

28:24 You can see that in PRG 3, measurement and targeting. We then have Michael responded to question 6 as well, seeing the amount of audience building and the need to be paying attention to multivariate signals that audience is sending. Plus it is more like traditional marketing than digital in that while you have a specific audience in mind, you need to go broad to find it. And on that very interesting note, we come to the end of our chat, which is at the point where I actually joined the chat and realized that it was coming to an end because of Ken. As I said, our clocks went back, one went back, went forward, we apparently had an extra hour in bed.

29:06 But I just, I've just been feeling so tired since the the clocks changed. I don't know seasonal affective disorder as well. If anybody really suffers from that, which I do, I feel for you. I've already got my Seasonal Affective Disorder light on. It's called the Sad Light, which is a weird name for it, but it really helps perk up my mood. Anyway, if you want to continue this very lovely chat and this exciting and very knowledgeable chat about programmatic advertising and whether as an SMB if you're a small business or you have a small business client, whether you should be testing it and looking into it, join us on Thursday at what I believe will be 4:00 PM our time, UK time, 1:00 PM midday, Eastern Time.

29:53 So yeah, during that, so that's 4:00 PM GMT before the the US switched clocks. They're going to be changing their clocks next week. So from next week will be 5:00 PM GMT as well, but for now it's going to be 4:00 PM GMT on Thursday on Twitter Spaces to continue this chat about programmatic advertising. I hope you've taken some great takeaways from it, but if there's been any things that I I miss said, any corrections, anything you want to add to it, please get in touch with us on the the PPC chat handle not handled hashtag. Even the PPC chat hashtag or my DM's are open. Yeah, you know, well, coming to it gracefully, respectfully. I don't tolerate people who just go high and do nothing. So please let your your message come with a bit of context. I'm very busy.

30:47 But yeah, it'll be really great as well for my longstanding and brand new listeners to give the podcast a review or racing. Yeah, to do that, just go to linktr dot EE forward slash PPC chat, under score roundup. That's linktr dot EE forward slash PPC chat under score roundup and you'll get all the links like Spotify and Apple where you can leave a rating or review. And yeah, definitely can't feel to remember that we've got the 3rd edition of PPC Live UK, which is getting bigger and better. We've got an amazing headline sponsor, De Genius Limited. Thank you so much De Genius for trusting me with this.

31:29 They have sponsored every tear, the silver, Gold and Tottenham side of things things. So that means they'll be recorded, there'll be lots of food, there'll be some merge, some swag that I'm going to give. I think I'm going to do it in a competition style way. So if you're in London, you're going to be even in the UK and you can make it down to London on the 24th of November. Please join us. The link to get that ticket will be BBIT dot LY forward slash PPC Live UKNOV 22. And yeah, it'll take you to the event bright page to buy a ticket for only £16.00, so we'd love to have you there finally. Remember, for your campaigns and businesses to glide smoothly, there's a lot of hard work needed beneath the surface, so keep your Swans kicking. Bye and speak to you next week.