EP339 - Why Client Fit Matters More Than Growth ft Kirk Williams

Anu Adegbola (00:01)
Kirk, welcome to PPC Live the Podcast.

Kirk Williams (00:04)
Hey, it is fantastic to see your face again. This time digitally. We, yeah, we saw each other last year, think, Brighton or HeroConf Was it? Indiego?

Anu Adegbola (00:07)
And...

Here a conf and there was

an there was an SMX one that I feel you're you're at as well that I and I moderated you and yeah, I you're definitely in London because I know I was I was in the moderator and it was just such a joy such a full circle moment We won't go too into too much data depth into talking about like how we met because that was like the Twitter days when we had such a fantastic right

Kirk Williams (00:16)
⁓ yeah, London. Yeah, or Berlin.

Yeah, RIP Twitter.

Anu Adegbola (00:42)
we had such a lovely right right yeah that's

Kirk Williams (00:42)
The OG Twitter before X took over and ruined everything. But anyway. ⁓

Anu Adegbola (00:48)
you know hey thanks to twitter thanks that twitter gave us that it was good for what it was and you know there are loads of other ways like podcasts events and things that you can build we would build great relationships and i was just so delighted when i was like yay kirk is traveling again going and coming back to half parts of the world so it's such a joy

Kirk Williams (01:07)
Yeah.

Anu Adegbola (01:08)
for those who don't know Kirk Williams is as you, as we've mentioned, someone that has been in the industry for many years. ⁓ you're the owner of Zato Did I say that right? Zato, right? Lovely. ⁓ you know, they're a PPC search, ⁓ micro agency of experts and have worked in digital marketing since, ⁓ 2009. So yeah, way back. ⁓ you can, they, they offer a really great, like 15 minute audits.

Kirk Williams (01:20)
Yeah, you did. You got it right.

Anu Adegbola (01:38)
for accounts and also Kirk is like an author of two fantastic books, Ponderings of a PPC Professional and Stop the Scale and yeah, two fantastic books that, know, it's one of those things, one of those kind of books that I feel that's really nice with the fact that PPC is changing so much. We need some books that don't need updating every six months because there's always something changing and those thought process that you share in the books,

Kirk Williams (02:02)
Hehehe.

Anu Adegbola (02:07)
I actually really loved that. I'm like, you know, as relevant as when they were published, as relevant as they are today as well. Speaking engagements has, he's an international speaker, has spoken at Brighton SEO, learning about Dublin marketing professional for professionals, SMX, HeroCom, State of Search, many more. He continues to do it and we're continued to be, you know, amazed by the, by the wisdom he shares.

⁓ has written articles across so many like Search Engine Land, PPC Heroes, Search Engine Journal, WordStream, et cetera. So yeah, can hear loads of, yeah, Kirk's knowledge that he shares even on LinkedIn, everywhere. It's really great to have someone who has built a great personal branding of just being open to share what you're learning. ⁓ But yeah, in terms of what we're learning, you know, we don't just learn from what we read on LinkedIn, we learn from our mistakes.

And the best of us as you know, as we've talked with a lot of the experts before we get to the great heights that we are because of the mistakes that we've made. There's no success that doesn't come without its failings and comes out with its oops. You know, there might be stories that you want to be like, okay, I'm going to just move on from that. So I'm really grateful that people are willing to recount.

some of those painful moments. ⁓ yeah, Kirk is going to do that with us today. So Kirk, please, what f-up would you like to share with us today?

Kirk Williams (03:34)
Yeah, so, yeah, was thinking about this one. You know, we chatted about recording and I think probably since I like talking a lot about agency stuff, especially like small agency things and that, ⁓ I wanted to talk about primarily taking on clients that haven't been a good fit for us in the past. And not solving that perfectly, but also taking some specific steps to solve that.

Anu Adegbola (03:46)
Mm.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (04:02)
rather than just kind of being helpless like, well, you know, we misread that situation, I guess they didn't end up being a good client. I just think a lot of times there are ways to identify when you and a client are not gonna be a great fit for each other, whether you're a consultant or an agency. And so yeah, I just thought of a few specific times I can think of with that and some of the things we learned and steps we've taken, so.

Anu Adegbola (04:28)
Go ahead, what's the first example you'd like to share?

Kirk Williams (04:33)
Yeah, so ⁓ I think overall I would say oftentimes I see when we have taken on clients that aren't a good fit in the past, there's been some sort of external pressure that we have felt either.

it may be kind of this positive like, ooh, we'd like to grow fast so we ignore certain red warning signs. Or it might be, maybe it's kind of like a, we've been losing some clients in kind of a key times. A lot of agencies, especially if you've been around for, we've been around for almost 14 years, think, something like that. ⁓ And so you also can point to certain times where then when you look back at it, you're like, everyone in the industry was struggling. So you lose clients.

Anu Adegbola (04:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (05:16)
Again, you feel some of that pressure, that economic pressure of, well, maybe we need to take clients on. And so, yeah, there have just been various instances where I look back and I'm like, man, you know, we were on the call, we were in the account, we kind of knew, we ignored that thing that told us, just don't know if we're gonna be able to deliver what this client is expecting. And rather than lean into that,

Anu Adegbola (05:40)
Sure.

Kirk Williams (05:42)
and try to

Anu Adegbola (05:42)
Yeah.

Kirk Williams (05:42)
bring that out or question it or ask about it or seek clarification, we may ignore that and then pretty rapidly, as many of us know, that turns into a situation where ⁓ it's problematic. And one of the things I want to talk about, I almost feel like I need to make a case for this actually is problematic because sometimes I think people think, well, as long as we're growing, then yeah, you have to put up with a lot.

Anu Adegbola (05:49)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirk Williams (06:09)
But one of the things

of taking on clients who are not a good fit for you, and I do want to be a little careful because sometimes I hate using the words bad or good because sometimes those can have ethical or moral things or not. to define that, when I say good or bad, a big part of what I'm speaking of in this podcast episode is just like they're not a good fit for you or they're a bad fit for you. OK, so that's how we'll define it, right?

Anu Adegbola (06:23)
Mm-hmm.

fit. Yes. Yes.

Kirk Williams (06:37)
So, like, whatever it is that makes up my agency and that sort of thing that we've kind of figured out is, these clients who are a bad fit for us. And one of the reasons why it's just always a really bad idea that I've identified is it always ends up leaving our team emotionally taxed. ⁓ So we are, we are not, it's not simply, there's also a time tax to that as well. Like, you're just having more conversations, trying to figure out, trying to solve the problem.

Anu Adegbola (06:44)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kirk Williams (07:06)
you know, so the

client might have an issue, you talk about it, there's more friction, friction requires more time to deal with things. It's also just like, emotionally tiring, right? ⁓ That's, that's a toll that pulls away from your energy to be able to pull pour into the places where you can actually, you know, positively impact things. ⁓ And then also there is a level where it's it's financially taxing as well.

Anu Adegbola (07:28)
Mm-hmm.

course.

Kirk Williams (07:34)
because again, when you're spending more time, you're just less profitable as an agency. Or there are certain times where, we, it's pretty common for us if we, if I've taken on a client that ends up being a really bad fit right off the bat, there are times where I've just, in order to minimize our liability and risk, I've just given refunds, frankly.

Anu Adegbola (07:50)
Yeah.

Yeah,

Kirk Williams (08:00)
Because I'm like, I would rather

Anu Adegbola (08:00)
wow.

Kirk Williams (08:01)
refund maybe in this, maybe in some cases, a couple thousand dollars personally, ⁓ then deal with the potential for ongoing whatever, let's have a clean break. And I'm gonna call that like a learning tax for myself. So that's happened for us in the past. And so I think all of those things kind of help demonstrate like, there really are times where someone's not a great fit and it actually has like cost to you and your team and your agency.

Anu Adegbola (08:06)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Kirk Williams (08:27)
And

it is really important to actually accept that and kind of lean into that and then actually think maybe we need to solve that. So, and there are solutions for that.

Anu Adegbola (08:34)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. Is it possible to, ⁓ let's deep dive into like, let's say one of the clients, you don't have to call out the name, what brand it was, but like, just how that whole, okay, just post the, you won the client, you started working with them, and then like, what were the specific red flags that you started picking up kind of thing that led you to think this was not a good decision?

Kirk Williams (09:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah, so I think some of those would be, you know, I'm thinking of one specifically where I think what I would say is I failed to take all of the red, yellow, beige, and all of, you know, any non-green flag, I failed to take all of those into account.

Anu Adegbola (09:21)
different colors.

Kirk Williams (09:25)
and put that into, hey, this might not be a good client for us. So with this particular individual, there were significant interpersonal things that I should have jumped into and leaned into more. So for instance, just the way they would communicate with us on our discovery calls and emails ⁓ was relatively emotionally non-mature. So things like, ⁓

Anu Adegbola (09:34)
Hmm.

Okay, okay, right.

Kirk Williams (09:53)
So I'm trying to think of, without going into ultra-specifics, but also to make it helpful enough where someone kind of understands. When you're trying to solve, when you're trying to conflict resolve, even if it's not a conflict, well, that might be part of it. When you're just trying to figure stuff out and all of a sudden it turns into a conflict that really is more in the case of, hey, we're just trying to figure out what to do with our business and pricing or whatever it might be, right? That's a flag I've started to realize is more red than I used to. if someone, so what I mean by that is if you're talking

Anu Adegbola (10:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Okay.

Kirk Williams (10:23)
in business and you're just communicating on some things. And immediately, if all of a sudden the client starts treating us as if we are not an individual business, you know, with our own objectives and fee structures and that sort of thing, and certainly we can, you know, certainly we can maybe figure out pricing or that sort of thing, but there's also some level of co-respect that in my opinion is required between two individual free businesses. We have different ways of doing things. I might not like...

Anu Adegbola (10:35)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Kirk Williams (10:53)
or whatever the way you do things, but I can respect that that's your business, right? When that turns into someone communicating in a... All of a sudden, they're bringing like their own emotional defensiveness and stuff like that into it or attacking, right? Treating you as if you are not allowed to have your pricing be what it is or something like that. That started to become more of a red flag for me because what that suggests, and that's like what had happened in this instance is one of those...

Anu Adegbola (10:57)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (11:22)
What that suggests is that down the road, this person is not going to, like this person is already showing that they don't respect our value. ⁓ They don't respect the fact that we believe we have value and that it may be different than what they see. ⁓ And increasingly for this guy specifically that I'm thinking of, I began to realize, he's one of these types that the world is there to serve him no matter what.

Anu Adegbola (11:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kirk Williams (11:52)
And the only way you're going to benefit from this is if you happen to like temporarily align with serving him and you happen to improve, right? ⁓ Again, like I've just started to find out like relationships like that in business are just are not great. ⁓ As opposed to relationships where people are like, hey, we both have our own business objectives and we're both we're both trying to make money, but we're also both trying to, you know, we're trying to do our own thing. And again, we can respect

Anu Adegbola (12:01)
Yeah.

Nah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (12:22)
That you are trying to do that as well, but that you're a separate entity and then to me respecting that doesn't mean that you can't You can't hold your own values and boundaries, but it does mean that you honor the others as well Even if that means at some point you just are like, okay. Well, hey, we're not gonna be a great fit. Good luck to you So that's one example I don't I can pause there or I can you know go with others

Anu Adegbola (12:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, go with others go with others because like yeah, I said this will not be necessarily a very long episode but like I think yeah, let's let's be punchy with like what's what the great examples are because but I just suggest you know, just have a my own thoughts on you know, that's for example, definitely important if if the person doesn't respect you though they don't respect what your values are and if it's not going to be two ways and they're not going to understand that you bring

even much more to the table, especially when they're talking about trying to employ your advertising, your advertising kind of skills. If they don't just see the value of you, you're going to, it's going to be a downhill because they're never, you're going to have to prove every dollar that you're, you know, that you're working for and it shouldn't be like that. And you're just going to, they're never going to see the point of everyone like, you know, I'd maybe try to.

Cause with Google and everything that changes, trying to explain to them about the other things that they might need to do, that's always going to be an uphill battle, wouldn't it? Yeah.

Kirk Williams (13:49)
And I

think...

And here's, yeah, yes. And here's where I also distinguish and honor where a client is coming from. So I also believe there's a definite and important time of confidence building as well and skills. And what I mean by that is like, on one hand, I want them to identify and see and be excited about working with us and thinking that we have value. On the other hand, I completely respect the fact that if we've never seen each other, we took a month to figure out and then they sign on with us. I also respect the fact that like we

do need to show up and demonstrate that value and kind of.

Anu Adegbola (14:23)
Yeah. Yes.

Kirk Williams (14:23)
and kind of prove it, right? So again,

like certainly there's a time of that. ⁓ But also, and I think both of us are kind of tracking with the concern I'm trying to aim at is there's that, there's someone saying, hey, it appears that there's some level of PPC value. And then also let's actually see when the rubber meets the road if they can actually show up, right? And do well. That's why for us, like the first probably two to three months in an engagement are like insane.

Anu Adegbola (14:47)
Yeah.

Kirk Williams (14:53)
because it really is when it's most important and easiest to instill trust and move forward. The flip side is, know, man, if someone is treating you already as if...

Anu Adegbola (14:54)
Yes.

Kirk Williams (15:10)
I think there's just a lack, there's a difference between an ⁓ assumption of you've communicated to us enough information that you can in the discovery phase for us to have some level of trust in your ability to do the work we're hiring you for. There's a difference between that and just someone who is just unwilling to in any way trust you, but also still wants to hire you. So again, there's just kind of some level of like...

Anu Adegbola (15:24)
Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah.

Kirk Williams (15:35)
The more we talk it just seems like you don't trust us at all or interested in our value or or maybe you just keep trying to like Undercut our fees aggressively. So at some point like maybe you just need maybe like who you're looking for isn't us frankly because So yeah

Anu Adegbola (15:51)
Yeah, yeah. I think people

like, like for agencies and call source consultants, you've got to be really careful about that because it might just be someone is trying to look for someone that they can push over because they'll be like, okay, let me just see if I can, if I can just push them and push them and they'll just accept whatever it is I want. People just want someone who'll be like, yes, I'll say, we'll just say yes to whatever you're going to say. And then actually

Kirk Williams (16:05)
Yes.

Anu Adegbola (16:17)
I think those are the kinds of clients you need to go for bigger agencies who are willing to, well, they shouldn't, but take your nonsense because maybe they have like, you know, certain way of working that that could work out. then, but then that's when you end up with people in that agency's leaving because they've just been put on accounts.

of them, their contacts, don't respect them, don't care, and they just want yes, man. And you can see how that cycle has worked. It's as you said at the beginning, where some agencies just feel that whole pressure of like, okay, we've just lost a few clients or, you know, the economy is bad, so we just need to take whichever client is going and we'll figure out whether they're a fit later. We'll just take their money and do as much work for them. Make sure client services is in there and they're getting whatever they want. And it's not a relationship, it's just...

someone saying yes to a client because they've paid and yeah, people have got to be careful with that. You've to be careful with that. Be sure.

Kirk Williams (17:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and

I think that goes back to our point we were discussing in the beginning too, which is just kind of fit for you, like fit for you and your values and your purpose and stuff like that. So Anthony Higman is a guy I've chatted with and just love him. You know, he's online, know, he's like, he's kind of one of those like he's outspoken. He seems like a great dude, you know, and like we've chatted about this because he's like his focus, I believe, is lawyers, legal. And I don't...

Anu Adegbola (17:30)
Love, Anthony. ⁓ yeah.

Yes, he is. He is

the legal. Okay.

Kirk Williams (17:42)
I don't take lawyers on as clients.

That's just one of those personally I've learned. And again, that's not saying there aren't awesome lawyers. I know great lawyers, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. I've just learned that as an industry, my skills are primarily in shopping. And then also, part of this with attorneys and lawyers that I've noticed as a trend is they oftentimes kind of have that mentality of...

Anu Adegbola (17:58)
Sure, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirk Williams (18:07)
of the way that I get service from my agency is by almost like aggressively, untrustingly pushing, right? Some people are just great at like handling that, honestly, like better than me. And I also think there's a personality thing there. I think there can be a thing where, you know, maybe they need someone who's just like a little bit more like, well, no, I'm not going to do that. And here's why, you you big idiot. And the lawyer's like, you're an idiot. And then they're like, we love it.

Anu Adegbola (18:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Kirk Williams (18:37)
each other. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I love I'm like, I love that you have that relationship and that you like

Anu Adegbola (18:37)
yeah, It's like mind games, the mind games of it all. Yeah.

Kirk Williams (18:43)
being in that mind game. I don't. I'm a midwesterner. I don't like that. So anyways, that that is a legitimate

Anu Adegbola (18:45)
Yeah, yeah,

Kirk Williams (18:51)
But that is worth calling out of what I example of what I mean by fit. And like that is part of, think if you're a consultant or a small agency, you do need to kind of all of that stuff plays into like who your target is and who's a great fit for you. And then like determining that, you know, beforehand.

Anu Adegbola (19:03)
Yeah.

Kirk Williams (19:11)
I'm good if we go a few minutes over because there's another piece that you know what we talked about our time limit here There's another piece I think is really crucial to this as well because I kind of talked about the you know ⁓ Just the relational side, but to me there's also There's also like not just the relational because you can have maybe a person you talk to You know a prospect who's just a fantastic, you know nice person all this stuff, but then there's like the

Anu Adegbola (19:15)
Thanks. Okay.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (19:39)
The expectations of what PPC is or should be able to do for their account and whether you agree on that, that is also such a crucial part to fit. And kind of what I mean by that, and so in this specific example, again, like there were red flags early on that I kind of looking back and as we went, I started to identify, ⁓ they're pushing, they and us did not fully agree on the role that Google Ads

Anu Adegbola (19:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (20:09)
did and could play in their overall business growth. And I can explain that a little more, but because of that, that's kind of the big picture way of saying it, because of that, they had these expectations and goals with Google Ads that not just us, but really no agency could ever hit, right? And so now I'm starting to see that sort of thing way earlier on and even talk about that in the discovery process as like questions, just get that out.

Anu Adegbola (20:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (20:39)
But that is such a crucial part to fit that I've started to learn with clients because if you get someone who they are expecting you to do better in performance than Google Ads is able to do, ⁓ then in that case, they're not a good fit for you because again, you're just gonna have endless conversations about performance failing and then at some point they're like, hey, we love you.

Anu Adegbola (20:51)
See.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (21:04)
but also we're gonna try this new agency, because they promised us XYZ and they're moving on anyways. ⁓ And so I think those, it's almost like those two key parts are things I've learned more and more like relationally, as well as ⁓ like expectations and performance and marketing and all of that. Those two things are so important and there's just very specific ways we've started identifying and leaning into those two things in our discovery process.

Anu Adegbola (21:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (21:33)
And I just

think overall, it's just really helped us start to avoid, you know, some of those like major things where like in this instance, I've been sharing this guy. It was like 30 days, I think that we we both were basically like, hey, this is not working. And I was the one to say, hey, we're out. So.

Anu Adegbola (21:50)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's

really important. I know that those points are very important to you. I remember you talking about it. I say talking about it because I did listen to your book as an audio book and I loved that you narrated it. That was so lovely. And you talk about that. You talk about, especially when a brand comes and they're not doing anything else in terms of advertising, they just expect PPC is gonna be the one that does.

Kirk Williams (22:02)
Haha

Hehehe.

Anu Adegbola (22:16)
all the heavy lifting of the branding that they should have been doing of the customer service. And they're like, guys, you know, and you know, that's a big red flag that I love that you point out. Cause you know, be weary when brands are like, we're not doing anything else, but we want PPC to drive all the sales and drive all the revenues and everything. And it's really important to realize that PPC works in tandem with loads of your different channels, channels that you're working with. And there's got to be a very great integrated strategy. PPC is not marketing. PPC should be part.

of your marketing strategy. should not be the whole marketing strategy. It will never work if it's doing such heavy lifting. None of the channels will. So it's not even like a PPC flaw It's like you need multiple channels working together for things to actually work well. Yeah, knowing that... Yes.

Kirk Williams (22:46)
Mm-hmm.

For a long term sustainable business, do think,

you know, as we know, and sometimes people are hung up on the fact they're like, well, you know, I've been working with my, you know, company for two years, and we're only PPC and things are going great. And it's kind of like, okay, so you're a two year old business, you know, leaning into Google Ads, you know, again, we're talking more long term healthy, actual business longevity and growth. diversification is just a fact of life, you know.

Anu Adegbola (23:19)
Yeah.

It really is. I'd actually argue what people actually think when they say that, okay, we're only doing PPC. If you actually sat down and they're saying it's working, if you sat down with them, you'll realize there's other things going on that they are not even aware is going on that is helping PPC. there, I, I, just, am, I am, it's a hill I will die on. PPC on its own cannot work. generally,

Kirk Williams (23:32)
So.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Anu Adegbola (23:59)
generally feel that like, cause right now I'm not necessarily with PPC live and our branding. We're doing social media, but we're doing, I'm also doing newsletter word of mouth, you know, certain things that are working that maybe I'm not paying for. There's not like a paid channel, but I'll work in all together to ensure things, ensure that actually marketing and growth happens. Um, but yeah, this has been a fantastic chat already. Honestly, I, we've, we've, we've, we've

Kirk Williams (24:21)
Mm-hmm.

Anu Adegbola (24:26)
filled that time with some really great knowledge in my opinion. But just before we go into our last few questions, I'd like to see if you have any ideas of what you've seen in terms of what other agencies might have been done doing wrong or what the industry is still getting wrong that you feel like you can't believe in your 15 years of doing digital advertising, that's a mistake that you saw in year five and it's still happening in year 15. Are there some mistakes that just...

painfully reoccurring.

Kirk Williams (24:58)
⁓ Do you mind if I take a few minutes and just walk through a few questions to solve some of these problems first that I talked about with the client? ⁓ Can I do that real quick? Because I think this is actually kind of a crucial like a period at the end of the sentence of the client's problems we were talking about or like the discovery identification. ⁓

Anu Adegbola (25:07)
Of course.

Okay?

Kirk Williams (25:21)
To me just as a quick like if someone's like, okay, it sounds great I would like to you know I would like to determine how clients are good fit and then maybe they just aren't really quite sure how to do that one of the one of the biggest things that we have done and I'll just share some of these questions is we've started asking the right questions on our discovery form and in our calls and And here's what you're trying to get at and I think this is kind of the crucial piece that will like Put home some of this. I think what you're trying to get at

Anu Adegbola (25:30)
Yeah.

Fantastic. Amazing. Yeah.

Kirk Williams (25:48)
is like, hey, there's a reason you're contacting us as an agency. There always is, right? And so like, what is that? Like, what is, like, let's really find, and sometimes they don't even know that, and so sometimes it's just like, you're trying to help them uncover what is their main problem. And then we need to agree on the way that PPC can solve that main problem. Because if we don't, again, like, you're starting the relationship.

Anu Adegbola (25:52)
Yeah? Yeah?

Hmm

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (26:13)
poorly right then and there. So if you're just focused on answering that, and then there are lots of little questions that you ask to start helping determine that as well, especially if they don't know. we just like to ask questions in terms of getting an understanding of, how are they viewing the relationship between a business's scaling possibility and efficiency? So if they're asking, if they think their main problem is scaling,

Anu Adegbola (26:15)
Mm.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirk Williams (26:42)
Do they also understand there's gonna be an efficiency loss, a ROAS dip with that, you know, blah, blah. You're trying to understand that sort of stuff. ⁓ You know, we talked about this, but what are other ways of driving demand in other marketing channels? ⁓ How do you see the role of Google Ads playing into your marketing strategy? Some of these are open-ended questions purposefully, because what they do is you ask them, and then it allows you to start actually getting at more of the heart of...

Anu Adegbola (26:56)
Hmm?

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (27:11)
of again what that problem is and whether or not PBC can solve that. And then relationally, just some of the questions I love asking is, you know, why are you unhappy with your existing agency or employee and looking for a change? Because again, they are. But then I like asking, what's something you like about them? And the reason I like asking that is because it kind of helps you, what you're doing in discovery as an agency,

Anu Adegbola (27:13)
Yeah.

Yeah

Kirk Williams (27:41)
is you are way more of a detective than maybe you think you are because you're trying to really uncover, again, like, who is this person I'm gonna partner with? And what you need to know is, does this person just have unrealistic expectations on agencies? Or is there an actual issue? So if what's something you like about them, if they can't come up with anything,

Anu Adegbola (27:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. ⁓

Kirk Williams (28:06)
Maybe the person they're working with before actually is like the worst PPCer of all time, and maybe they're legitimately, that's fair. Or maybe like that's, again, maybe that's a little hint that you add to the database that over time on this client, you start to piece all this together where you can determine it, and at least you get to walk in with eyes wide open. So I think that's kind of how I would say is how we've begun solving.

Anu Adegbola (28:12)
me.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (28:32)
the client fit issue is just by like taking the time to ask the right questions and dig in with curiosity in the discovery process. So then we all, and the funny thing is, and I'll close with this, the funny thing is is like, this will actually help your sales because you genuinely are trying to understand them. And I don't know how to say it other than they are aware of that. They can sense that. And it's almost like if you're doing this correctly, by the time you get there,

Anu Adegbola (28:33)
Mmm.

Yeah.

course.

Yeah.

Kirk Williams (29:01)
You know, there's other factors like pricing and stuff that for sure way into this at some point. But by the time you get there, if all of you are like, hey, this seems like we're all on the same page in a good fit. It's just way easier to then make that final sale when you're already there, right? And you get there with those right questions and stuff like that. So all that to say to me, that's kind of how you actually then move from, hey, how do I even tell if clients a good fit to actually solving this?

Anu Adegbola (29:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, amazing. I'm for anyone that pitches for coins, you've just given people like a playbook there. you know, and thankfully this podcast is there was going to be the transcript is going to be like the show notes. So you'll see as a bullet point, all those like questions that Kirk has advice that we should be asking. And I think that goes for consultants. If you're a solo, you're a freelancer, you're part of an agency.

You're a detective. want to really figure out what the relationship with this client is going to be and not just go, have dollar signs in your eyes because a client has decided, potential client has decided to, you know, call you up and have a meeting with you. It's really important that you go through this with this, with for your mental health, for our mental health. There's a whole bunch of crazy stuff going on in the world without clients relationship being another thing on the list That is the one thing that is

pulling our energy down and pulling our motivation down. So yeah, these kinds of discovery questions are absolutely critical and important. ⁓ You know what, Kirk, you've given us so much. You've given us more than I could ask for. So we're gonna do a roundup at this stage and just go to our lovely final question that if your PPC career were a movie, what would the title be?

Kirk Williams (30:51)
So I have to admit, I didn't think very long about this one, so I'm not sure if I have a great answer, but we were joking a little bit about, I mean, it's kind of difficult for me not to say Star Wars. I'm not sure who I would be at this point, yeah. Maybe like as a small agency.

Anu Adegbola (30:54)
you

Yeah, I literally was like in Cartman Star Wars.

Kirk Williams (31:07)
You know, and like, what a shocker, but maybe, yeah, maybe I'm like the rebellion as the small agency fighting, you know, fighting against like the overall unhealthy agency culture that's out there burning everyone out. So yeah, I like that. Yeah, somehow I ended up being the good guy in that. I don't know how that happened.

Anu Adegbola (31:12)
Ayyyy

See, yes. Absolutely. No, definitely. you know, like, of course you're the good guy. You've always been the good guy. Always

been someone that if I just go into like Kirk's DMs and be like, Kirk, a client has asked me about this. What should I do? You've always been great and responsive. And you know, that's the kind of people we need in this industry. We got, and you know, I also, even sometimes in the previous episodes talk about,

You know, the fact that not people don't share mistakes. People are always like, everything is going well. I've got, I've just, you know, close the deal of the million, you know, dollar revenue X, Y, Z. And I'm, you know, running this kind of huge accounts, $10 million accounts. And everybody's just talking about how big spends that they're doing. And sometimes you need people who are fighting for the little guys as well. The smaller agencies who actually care about who they're working with. ⁓ so yeah, no, definitely. I always, I always love like checking what you're talking about.

Where you're gonna be speaking. Are you gonna be doing any international events again this year?

Kirk Williams (32:21)
Yeah, so I'm hitting, ⁓ gosh, I'm doing Munich, Amsterdam, Brighton, and Manchester.

Anu Adegbola (32:28)
⁓

my god, you're gonna be in Manchester! That is so cool!

Kirk Williams (32:32)
Yeah, Performance

MCR with Charley Charley's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Are you going to be there?

Anu Adegbola (32:35)
Yes! my god, Charley is awesome. I love

that. I probably will. I feel like I've got to now. I wasn't sure, but my god. bless. And I'll see you in Munich as well.

Kirk Williams (32:42)
Nice yeah, you got to Yeah, I don't even know I

think I'm allowed to say that I mean, I don't think Charley's announced it yet But I don't know if it was like a super secret thing, but yeah, I'm excited Sounds like a fun sounds like a fun conference. So

Anu Adegbola (32:54)
that's amazing. That's,

it is a fun conference. I'm happy for her. Like, yeah, she's announcing like, there's gonna be a few American folks There's someone else, I know the keynote speaker. She's not announced it yet. And I do know who it's gonna be. We're not gonna say the name, cause I bet you know as well. But yeah.

Kirk Williams (33:09)
Yeah, yeah, probably. I don't

know.

Anu Adegbola (33:13)
Yeah, well,

yeah, you guys should come to that as well. It's going to be a very fun one. So yeah, those are the names of the conferences that Kirk is going to be at. So if you're going to be any of the in those places, yeah, I'm sure Kirk would love to hear from you and just say hello and yeah, we'll have a good chat. But yeah, and I know and

Kirk Williams (33:18)
Yeah, see you there.

I gotta tell you a real funny thing that happened in Berlin. Were you in Berlin, the SMX Advanced? Or no? Yeah, I think you were. Yeah. So, Miles McNair's talk. So I walked in, and there's a bunch of people, walked in and I had some of my books out. ⁓ I had talked with SMX and so I had some books. We were just giving them away, right, to the PPC people. ⁓

Anu Adegbola (33:32)
What?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, Were you in Berlin? I don't remember. yes, you were in Berlin. God, it's hilarious.

Yes.

Yeah

Kirk Williams (33:58)
So a guy was standing there and he was kind of looking at it and I walked up and I was like, you don't want to buy that. That guy's an idiot. And he was like, oh, okay. And then someone else was like, I don't remember who it was, Thomas Etchell or someone was right there. And they started laughing. So I think the guy could kind of tell something. And he flipped around and looked at my face and I was like, I'm messing with you. I wrote it.

Anu Adegbola (34:06)
Are you sure? I have no idea!

What's up?

It's like,

Okay,

yeah. Yeah. Right? Right?

Kirk Williams (34:26)
It was just kind of funny because he was like, man, good to know. Thanks for filling

me in on that idiotic author. I just thought it was kind of funny. It was very on brand. It was kind of awkward and funny. Quite on brand for me.

Anu Adegbola (34:34)
I love it. ⁓ bless him. Yeah. I think right. Yeah. Very, very

bright. I love it. I love it. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us, Kirk. And yeah, we'd love to check out, you know, what you're doing. Kirk is on LinkedIn. Like, you know, you're regular on that now, don't you? Aren't you? Sharing poster. You try.

Kirk Williams (34:55)
I'm trying. I kind of

hate it there and also like, yeah, you know, it is what it is.

Anu Adegbola (35:00)
It is what it is. ⁓ But we try because yeah, the people want to hear from you. So hopefully we'll continue to hear from you. But yeah, thank you so much for joining today and yeah, catch you on the conference trail.

Kirk Williams (35:03)
It's an

Yeah, thank you. Good chatting.

Anu Adegbola (35:13)
Thanks.