EP334 - When Location Targeting Goes Rogue ft Sophie Fell

Anu Adegbola (00:09)
Hello and welcome to PPC Live the podcast. I'm your host Anu, the founder of PPC Live. And if you're used to hearing advice from PPC experts about how to ensure that we're keeping up with the ever-changing landscape. Don't worry, you are still in the right place. But instead of relaying what the PPC experts are saying, I'm bringing the PPC experts to you. Every week I speak to a different PPC expert about their biggest f-up and how they've turned things around, how they're still a trusted member of the industry, you know, sharing.

thoughts and insights, whether it's on LinkedIn, at events, or just in general with your team and doing great work for their clients. Today, I get to the delight of speaking to Sophie Fell, who is a past PPC Live speaker. She's also an author and she shares content, just regularly, and it's so great to hear from her. And even though she doesn't consider herself and herself an expert because she has made mistakes and because she's always learning, I definitely consider her

as an expert who was very bold enough today to speak about one of her F-ups that she experienced around location targeting and the importance of double checking your settings even after you set a campaign live. So yeah, let's go and listen to this very interesting story that Sophie shares with us. Let's go speak to Sophie.

Anu Adegbola (01:26)
Hey Sophie, welcome to PPC Live the podcast.

Sophie Fell (01:30)
Hello! Thank you so much for having me I'm very excited to be here today

Anu Adegbola (01:34)
It is such a pleasure, such a pleasure Sophie, like I've been following Sophie for quite a while and ⁓ it wasn't this year, beginning this year, was it in Brighton this year that you spoke at PPC Live? Was it last year?

Sophie Fell (01:45)
Was it this year or was last

year?

Anu Adegbola (01:47)
It might have been last year, one of the brights, I feel it might actually, this year has felt like it's lasted two years, like a month, so many things have happened. So yeah, it's been like that. yeah, Sophie is not a stranger to the PPC live audience, which I'm delighted for. But for those who don't know, Sophie is one of those people that is always producing content and good content for the industry, whether it's templates or articles or tips, and even wrote a book.

Sophie Fell (01:53)
Yeah.

Anu Adegbola (02:13)
Is that the book right behind you there? Yeah, we got that's her book She's even got a revised version of it and done like, you know a couple versions of it because as we know terms of paid search as soon as you start writing a book the The information in it can be from out of date by the time it's published So yeah, you keep on you need to really keep on updating that which she has done She's a very like uber experienced paid media specialist having worked with LinkedIn Merlin entertainment Hotel Chocolat

Sophie Fell (02:14)
And that's

Anu Adegbola (02:41)
Informatech, Juicy Couture, Pizza Guys, Intrepid Travel, and many, many more for the past like 10 years plus, as well as right now, but presently she's in an incredible role as head of paid media at Liberty Marketing Group. She's also a performance marketing mentor and a paid media content creator. And, you know, she loves to talk, write, do all things in terms of PPC, in terms of like just getting involved with our community and

just sharing her knowledge, which is done for a long while, which is so cool. Fun fact, this is one I love because this is a location that I've been to, but I wasn't brave enough to do what Sophie did here. So she went to the Eiffel Tower. We know that like fun, very tall. Most of the time people are taking pictures from the base. That's what all us normal folks do. But Sophie, tell us, what did you do when you went to the Eiffel Tower?

Sophie Fell (03:31)
So the lift wasn't working and we were all the way in Paris, I wanted the full experience so I did climb the stairs of the Eiffel Tower which was very brave. I don't think I could do it now.

Anu Adegbola (03:36)
I just find that it's hard. It's very brave. I don't think I could do it now.

we calculated that. We googled that just before pressing record and it's like 674 steps up there. Yeah, 600 more than I would come to the recording. Right? 617 more than I would do. So, you know, kudos on you.

Sophie Fell (03:51)
Yeah, yeah, 600 more than I was comfortable with realistically.

Anu Adegbola (04:02)
Well done. You did it once. Hey, that's a very much like a claim to like you've done it once. You don't need to do that again. ⁓ So yeah, well done. So yeah, I'm so, so grateful that you're being brave enough to join me on this podcast episode talking about an f-up that you experienced and how you turned it around because

Sophie Fell (04:03)
Peace.

Exactly.

Anu Adegbola (04:26)
Yeah, as we read her cred, she's still very much a very trusted head of paid media at Liberty Marketing. So this was not an F-up that derailed her career. This is something she learned from, and she's going to be sharing her story so that you can learn from it and you don't have to make that mistake as well. So yeah, Sophie, let's get to it. What is the F-up you'd like to share with us today? So my F-up is that I ran a campaign for

Sophie Fell (04:50)
So my f-up is that I ran a campaign for a couple

of days with worldwide location targeting on, by accident of course. It was not the intention. So we generated about 1,500 leads in the space of a couple of days. I thought I was doing a great job. I knew I was good. I didn't realize I was that good.

Anu Adegbola (04:55)
Yeah!

Sophie Fell (05:15)
And we got some feedback from the client because everything was integrated with HubSpot and they realized quite

as well. it kind of reached out and I, so I'd noticed that morning and as I was halfway through writing an email to get ahead of it, they noticed first the email. So that is my, my probably my biggest, my biggest f-up in my.

Anu Adegbola (05:22)
as well so kind of reached out and I so I noticed that morning and as I was halfway through writing an email to get ahead of it they noticed me. Right! Right! So that was probably my biggest, biggest effort. Right,

So

yeah, that is certainly true. you know what, I'm glad that, cause I think some people might just, you know, let that slide. And I was the client that called it out. You were, you were drafting the email, you picked it up, you saw it. And did that affect, you know, so the client let you know how, what was the client comms like? Were they pissed or was it more guys? you, what's going on? How, how was like the temperature?

Sophie Fell (06:05)
It was a bit of

The

Anu Adegbola (06:07)
Yeah.

Sophie Fell (06:07)
was

definitely pissed, but it wasn't like what's happened here? Why is this happening? You know, what's gone on? Because was a brand new campaign had gone live. We were already running things on their account. We were trying something different. And yeah, so it was literally down to the campaign setting, which is why even in PBC live, I spoke about check your campaign settings. It was from personal experience that we always need to double check them. So it was of course the presence or...

Anu Adegbola (06:10)
it was literally down to the campaign setting, which is why even in PPC Live I spoke about checking your settings from personal experience that we always need to double check them. So it was of course the presence or

Sophie Fell (06:34)
interesting rather than where the person actually was situated, unfortunately. So yes,

Anu Adegbola (06:34)
interest in rather than where the person actually was situated unfortunately.

Yes, they noticed within, I think, a couple of days. We noticed in a couple of days as well. So it was, it wasn't great. They weren't thrilled. Um, but we very quickly obviously got to the bottom of it. We already knew what happened and pushed it off. Um, think we moved forward and went from there, but yeah, it wasn't ideal.

Sophie Fell (06:39)
they noticed within I think a couple of days, like I said, we noticed in a couple of days as well. So it was, it wasn't great. They weren't thrilled. But we very quickly obviously got to the bottom of it because we already knew what had happened and pushed it off. And we kind of moved forward and went from there. But yeah, wasn't ideal.

Anu Adegbola (06:59)
No, no. So how did you feel when you got that, when you got that email from them? Was this something that happened?

And again, I told you I do this. hate to like, cause sometimes maybe pull out information. don't necessarily want to share. Was this something like happened like in your recent role or more in a previous agency that you worked in? ⁓

Sophie Fell (07:20)
previous agency but in the last five years in a time where

I was old enough and big enough to know better 100 %

Anu Adegbola (07:26)
that you'd feel, yeah, yeah,

yeah, that you feel like you should have caught this. And so what would you say were the things that were missed that led to you not checking it? What processes did you just decide not to put in place? I

Sophie Fell (07:39)
I think I was

Anu Adegbola (07:41)
just trying to build it quickly. Right. I was really excited about getting this campaign live. I knew it was going to be a game changer for them. And when we did have the campaign settings in the right place, it was a game changer for them. And we gave them the best year ever, you know, hit their time.

Sophie Fell (07:41)
trying to build it quickly. I think I was really excited about getting this campaign live. I knew it was going to be a game changer for them. And when we did have the campaign settings in the right place, it was a game changer for them. And we gave them their best year ever, know, hit their target

Anu Adegbola (07:55)
it six weeks early, made them three and a half million more than they participated. like, it worked in the end. It was just one of those frustrating situations where, you you take yourself as you know about Edmonton

Sophie Fell (07:55)
six weeks early, made them three and a half million more than was anticipated. So like, it worked in the end. It was just one of those frustrating situations where, you know, you kick yourself because you know better than to...

to rely on those campaign settings, the defaults, and to not double check. But I think I just, I've been doing it for so long, I think in my head I was like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think I must have thought I'd checked it or that I didn't need to. I'm not 100 % sure. But

Anu Adegbola (08:08)
to rely on those campaign settings and defaults and to not double check. But I think I just, I've been doing it for so long, I think in my head I was like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think I must have thought I checked it or that I didn't need to. I'm not a hunch conceptual.

but like I said I was definitely big enough and I wouldn't have to have known better and that stuck with me.

Sophie Fell (08:25)
like I said, I was definitely big enough and old enough to have known better. And that stuck with me even

Anu Adegbola (08:32)
and

this is not like I said like you know some of my questions might be just off the cuff of like what based on what you said but like you said that like there were these thousand five hundred leads were there like now leads that they couldn't use or they just because it was like just out of their uh the location that they needed. Yeah so it was about a first step.

Sophie Fell (08:46)
unfortunately

Yeah, yeah, so it was out of their service

area. And again, it would have been they would have been great leads if their service could have been provided to those particular countries where it was worldwide, but there were certain countries that were really picked up. And, know, when you say maximize conversions to Google ads, you know, you're going to get conversion. It's happening in there.

Anu Adegbola (08:55)
Yes, yes, I'm gonna show it. Yeah

Sophie Fell (09:11)
The algorithm even then adopted and evolved quite quickly to, ⁓ these two places or these three places generate conversions. And they said they wanted conversions. So let's go, you know, and it's that snowball

very quickly. yeah, unfortunately, those leads cannot be used in this situation, which is why we all noticed so quickly. Because even I remember on the second day coming and having a look and thinking, these results are really good. And that's when I noticed I went through the settings and thought, let me try and qualify these from my side.

Anu Adegbola (09:23)
very quickly so you go unfortunately down those leads not be used in the situation which is why we all notice so quickly. Yeah. Because even I remember on the second day coming and having a look and thinking these results are really good and that's when I noticed I went through the settings and thought let me try and follow up IVs.

Sophie Fell (09:40)
And then that's when I

Anu Adegbola (09:40)
Yeah. And then that's

I noticed. Yeah, now that's good and I think that's even something that we've mentioned on a previous episode of like even when things are going well

You know, it's always good to have like, you know, a good reason so that you know, you will have checked this. This is exactly what, you know, why things are going even better than we thought. But then yeah, better than you thought might also be an indicator of you've done something wrong. So honestly, even if things are going well, don't just sit back and go, it's going well. That's so great. Check why, because it might be a bit too good to be true kind of situation, unfortunately. So what do you do?

Sophie Fell (09:59)
Yeah.

I

Anu Adegbola (10:19)
now differently would you say like post that into them what's something that you definitely do differently to ensure that kind of thing doesn't happen again.

So again, think beforehand I probably was quite rigorous with checking campaign settings, but again, for whatever reason, I just did not do it this time. even though I felt like I was quite rigorous beforehand, I'm even more rigorous now. And again, even if I think I've checked them, I will probably go back and check again. Again, like I said, if results are down or results are up, either way, I will go check the

Sophie Fell (10:26)
again, think beforehand I probably was quite rigorous with checking campaign settings, but again, for whatever reason, I just did not do it this time. So even though I felt like I was quite rigorous beforehand, I'm even more rigorous now. And again, even if I think I've checked them, I will probably go back and check again. Again, like you said, if results are down or results are up, either way, I will go check the campaign

settings to make sure, especially before reporting or giving any feedback and saying, look, we generated.

Anu Adegbola (10:48)
Yeah.

Sophie Fell (10:53)
under the leads and you know, turns out like none of them can be used or they're low quality, et cetera. for me, that was sort of a change in the way I work was check the campaign settings more than once. And again,

whether they're high or low, have a look again and make sure

Anu Adegbola (11:06)
whether they're high or low, have a look again and make

Sophie Fell (11:10)
what we're generating is right.

Anu Adegbola (11:10)
that what we're generating is right.

Absolutely. I think like that first like week or so is just is very important because it's your second pair of eyes. It's your not pressured because the eyes that you have, I think it's even with like anyone who does like LinkedIn posts or just, you know, just social media kind of thing. You know, I think one of my favorite features of social media is being able to edit a post

Sophie Fell (11:36)
Thanks for watching.

Anu Adegbola (11:36)
after posting no

matter how many times I've gone, ⁓ yeah, this is fantastic, but okay, look, look, look, it's great, post. 30 seconds later, I'll look at it and go, why are there 10 spelling errors that I didn't see? I wasn't even rushing when I wrote this. Your eyes pre and post a campaign or a post is totally different. You see more after you don't have the pressure of you need to get something right. So always, think,

It's not even about, okay, whether performance up or down. Your eyes pre and post a campaign going live is different. Use those post campaign going live eyes. You'll see something different and you'll see, okay, I didn't say that thing right. Even if it's like a day after. Which yes, we said again, let's not, I feel that this is a mistake where you went through the right process. And that's the thing, things just happen. And sometimes you...

Sophie Fell (12:15)
Thank

Yeah.

Anu Adegbola (12:33)
and you did the right thing to catch the error kind of thing. So those kinds of errors happen. And guys, this is one of those things where we can't teach you as much as, know, I'm very grateful with all our guests who are giving their tips on how to avoid that kind of error can happen to any one of us, no matter how experienced we are, you know, in, and it's about check, check once, check twice, check three times to ensure that.

that error doesn't stick, that error doesn't make as worse of an experience as possible. Okay, so someone is going through this kind of process, this kind of issue, they were like mid-email writing, they get the email from their client of like, you've messed up, what's your advice to them?

Sophie Fell (13:13)
Thank

of all, I think the best advice

take a breath. I mean, we're not saving lives. You might have wasted someone's budget and then you can work through that, whatever that is. So whether it's a refund or you talk about how you can, you know, do something different. There is a solution generally to these sorts of things. And I think again, taking a breath, taking stock. If you get the email, you know, and you don't

Anu Adegbola (13:23)
is take a breath. I mean, we're not saving lives. might have wasted someone's budget and then you can work through that, whatever that is. So whether it's a refund or you talk about how you can, you know, do something different. There is a solution generally to these sorts of things. And I think again, taking a breath, taking stock. If you get the email, you know, and you don't

Sophie Fell (13:48)
already know that something's happened. Again, obviously check immediately. So check

Anu Adegbola (13:48)
already know that something's happened, again, obviously check immediately. Yeah.

Sophie Fell (13:53)
the common places. Obviously check your metrics, your CPCs, CTRs, what do they look like? Are they wildly above or below what you think? Obviously check your campaign settings as well. I think the important thing is to hold your hands up, figure out what happened and maybe why that had happened. Speak very openly and honestly with the client. I think when you try and cover things up.

Anu Adegbola (13:54)
obviously check your metrics, can see CTRs, what do they look like, wildly above or below what you think. Obviously check your campaign settings as well. I think the important thing is to hold your hands up, figure out what happened and maybe why that happened. Speak very openly and honestly with the client. think when you try and cover things up,

Sophie Fell (14:18)
It gets worse, you make it worse for yourself.

Anu Adegbola (14:18)
it gets worse, make it worse.

yourself. really do. The client might have someone look into it and then you know it doesn't help. I think in those situations you do need to hold your hands up and be like look we really messed up and this is what happened. And then be very clear about what's going to happen next. How you're going to make sure this ever happens again. What you're going to do to resolve it. I think those are the three parts. Look at how this happened.

Sophie Fell (14:20)
You really do. Cause then you're, you're fibbing and the client might have someone look into it and then, you know, it doesn't help. So I think in those situations, you do need to hold your hands up and be like, look, we really messed up and this is what happened. But then be very, very clear about what's going to happen next. How you're going to make sure this never happens again. What you're going to do to resolve it. I think those are the three parts is yeah, look at how this happened.

be very open and honest and be very clear on how you're going to make sure this never happens again and actually do that piece.

Anu Adegbola (14:46)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Now that's been, that's been so great, Sophie. And you know, we're not gonna make you dig deeper into that story so that you can leave it. I know it can be painful looking back as to that thing that you did, even though you learned a lot from it. But like, finally, what's one last thing, could even be something you've already said before or something new. What's one final takeaway you want the audience, the listeners to take away from that story you've just shared with us?

Sophie Fell (15:19)
again, just check your campaign settings. It's so easy. mean, Google evolves, Microsoft evolves, Meta revolves. You could create a campaign one month and the next month you do exactly the same way and settings may change and evolve. So it's just

really keeping on top of what that looks like, keeping on top of the defaults and just making sure that you have done what you think you've done, whether that's budgets, settings, know, anything like that, conversion tracking, anything like that.

Anu Adegbola (15:33)
Yeah. of what that looks like, keeping on top of the defaults and just making sure that you have done what you think you've done.

Sophie Fell (15:48)
It just does mean checking more than once.

Anu Adegbola (15:48)
It just does mean checking more than once.

check that. Check those settings more than once. I don't know I've said earlier on your eyes that your eyes of seeing what things are going to going on post campaign is totally different for us. So it's always, always double check. All right.

Sophie Fell (16:05)
Yeah, for that thing.

Anu Adegbola (16:06)
Moving on, taking the spotlight off you for a second and for taking it onto like our industry. Our industry makes a lot of mistakes and you know, as head of paid media or even like doing like, you know, agency work for previous agencies, when you win a client, the things that you see that the previous agency was doing or the previous consultant or what they were doing in house that makes you go, guys, I know why you need us. We're going to fix all of these things beforehand. What are some of like the more like the repetitive mistakes that you see that have been

Sophie Fell (16:28)
Thank you.

Anu Adegbola (16:36)
being done still, it could be something to do with automated automation or not either way, whichever one you're you're you lean towards. I'm what I like some of the biggest errors that you see out there.

I think the ones that spring to mind as you say that like pop up a lot is that just campaigns being completely unloved and not like keeping up with best practices. I know for example, Google's best practices

Sophie Fell (16:47)
think there's a few. I think the ones that spring to mind, as you say, like crop up a lot is that just campaigns being completely unloved and not like keeping up with best practices. And I know, for example, Google's best practices

Anu Adegbola (17:03)
aren't always what we as PPC practitioners actually do. However, there is some balance to have that, And I think when I see the accounts that

Sophie Fell (17:04)
aren't always what we as PPC practitioners actually do. However, there is some balance to be had there, I think. And I think when I see accounts that haven't been touched for like three or four or even five years,

Anu Adegbola (17:13)
been touched for like three or four, even five years.

Sophie Fell (17:17)
Again, it's just completely way off of what it needs to be doing. I can still see, I've seen multiple accounts this year with broad match modifier keywords and things like that. So then you know, like no one's looked at this for a while.

Anu Adegbola (17:17)
Again, it's just completely way off of what it needs to be doing. I've seen multiple accounts that show a broad match modifier keyword and things like that. So then you know. one's.

Sophie Fell (17:33)
And then, know.

Anu Adegbola (17:32)
should know that. And just to clarify, in case people are confused as to why Sophie and I laughing at that broad match modifier is not a match type anymore.

It used to be, it got sunsetted, Google tried to throw us in with all the confusion of new match types and especially when exact became a bit, yeah, close variants and now we're sticking back to its broad phrase exact just in case people are confused by that. Only three match types. Sorry, continue Sophie, I needed to

Sophie Fell (18:02)
No, no, sorry.

Anu Adegbola (18:03)
make that painfully clear.

Sophie Fell (18:06)
It's egregious is what it is. In

2025, know, again, that's just one of those things that you see and you go, ⁓ this has not been taken care of in the way that it should have been. I think another one recently I audited an account, or audited, sorry, an account that was spending ⁓ literally half a million a month on Google Ads and like, 92 % of their conversions were coming from brand, for example, and it's, and they want to scale up and yeah, it's...

Anu Adegbola (18:11)
see and you go, this has not been taken care of. I think another one recently I ordered an account that was spending literally half a million a month on Google ads and 97 % of their conversions are coming from brands.

example, and they want to scale up. yeah, it's

Sophie Fell (18:34)
Again, you can kind of argue it either way and it depends on what you're doing on other platforms and things like that. But I think in terms of long-term business growth and strategy, you just can't have

Anu Adegbola (18:34)
that again, you can kind of argue it either way. And it depends on what you're doing on other platforms and things like that. But I think in terms of long term business growth and strategy, you just can't

Sophie Fell (18:44)
that. If your Google Ads account anymore, it's fine for a while. But it's really important to remember that's very, very, very bottom of funnel, almost below the funnel. to have that like sustainable long-term growth and, you know, even at CMO level, those kinds of decisions are.

Anu Adegbola (18:45)
It's

Sophie Fell (19:02)
are wild. it's really important that there's, you're using your Google ads to actually support your business growth and not just grabbing low hanging fruit or what about there. I think that's a shift we're starting

to see generally as well. We're not our jobs aren't about driving traffic or driving leave or anything like that. It's way more about how do we contribute to the wider business strategy, which I really enjoy my role as well. So I think, yeah, that's probably something that comes up a lot.

Anu Adegbola (19:23)
I think that's something that comes up a lot.

Sophie Fell (19:32)
and it's a bit of a bummer for our

Anu Adegbola (19:33)
and is a bit of a bummer for our

Sophie Fell (19:36)
when things like that happen.

Anu Adegbola (19:36)
Sure, for sure.

Any specific examples in terms of how people are using AI or Performance Max or AI Max? Have you tried AI Max yet? I have not tried AI Max yet. I'm not ready. I don't think I'm ready. Fair enough. You know what? And that is a very good answer to give as long as it's not something that you've just gone, oh, I don't know. I've just not thought about it. If it's a thoughtful...

Sophie Fell (19:45)
I have not tried AI Maxi. I'm not, I'm not ready. I don't think I'm ready.

Anu Adegbola (20:03)
no i'm not ready yet that's good that's really good in my opinion but yes what ai stuff are you seeing

Sophie Fell (20:04)
you ⁓

Yeah. Yeah. And I think again,

I've

some accounts lately that are running P max, but like the audience signals aren't right and they're not aligning or there are really good audience signals, but that ad copy doesn't address what the people within those audience signals and search plans are actually looking for. And I think, again, I think we've got better as an industry and as general knowledge of Google ads as well, that we know like your keywords and your ad copy and your landing pages all need to match. I think

Anu Adegbola (20:20)
doesn't address what the people within those audience signals and search plans are actually looking for. I think, again, I think we've got better as an industry and as general knowledge of Google Ads as well, that we know like the keywords and your ad copy and your landing page, all need to match, la la la. I think

Sophie Fell (20:37)
We're all pretty clear on that now, hopefully. But I think when it comes to PMAX, it gets thrown out the window, but those fundamentals are still really, really important, whether you're doing AI campaigns, PMAX, et cetera.

Anu Adegbola (20:37)
we're all pretty clear on that now, hopefully. But I think when it comes to Emacs, it gets thrown out the window. But those fundamentals are still really, really important when you're doing AI campaigns, Emacs, et cetera.

Sophie Fell (20:49)
So I think that's people obviously see PMAX as like a money pit in a lot of cases, and maybe they're not getting what they want. But equally, I think, yeah, we're missing the fundamentals in a lot of cases. We're not transferring what we know about search.

Anu Adegbola (20:50)
So I think that's people obviously see Emacs as like a money pit in a lot of cases. Maybe they're not getting what they want. But equally, think that we're missing the fundamentals in lot of cases. We're not transferring what we know about search

Sophie Fell (21:04)
to PMAX in a way that's kind of coherent and consistent. And I think that's why a lot of brands are still struggling with PMAX. It's definitely not perfect, but there's things

Anu Adegbola (21:04)
through Emacs in a way that's kind of coherent and consistent. And I think that's why a lot of brands are still struggling with Emacs. It's definitely not perfect, but

Sophie Fell (21:16)
can do as well.

Anu Adegbola (21:16)
things we can do as well. Yeah, I mean, like, no, Emacs is not perfect.

but it has improved a lot more. And that is why, and I said earlier on, if you've not tested AI max and as a conscious decision, that is absolutely fine because I think one thing that has been said by a lot of folks and what, you know, and is we should really be paying attention to. And if you've not, what rock have you been hiding under? Like with our AI, Google's AI tools, the first iteration of it is us.

being the beta test, us being the alpha test even. They're literally just trying to say, which advertiser is gonna test it out and see how rubbish it is and tell us what we need to be fixing now. Like that is how they set tools out to set some of these tools out. And some people are bold enough and like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll test it. Like, you know, I'm, I'm this like, I know how to use all the tools and those folks, they're the alpha test like go, okay, tell us, tell us what everything. And PMAX had that. PMAX at the beginning was a bit of a hot mess. Everybody complained about.

Sophie Fell (21:49)
you

Anu Adegbola (22:16)
you know, the visibility, it's so black box, you have no idea what's going on, cannibalization, XYZ. And now they've done quite a lot ⁓ with it now. So I guess a lot of people are waiting for that to also happen with AI Max. But like, yeah, with VMAX, there's a lot to be done with it where you can't just go, no, it's not working like that, you know, and I don't know what to do, figure it out. There's definitely lots of controls to affect now.

Sophie Fell (22:24)
Mm-hmm.

Anu Adegbola (22:43)
Also now moving on to talking about, you know, I also like, like highlighting and not glossing over the theme of this podcast about talking about FFs like bless you. If you don't mind me saying when I did ask you to be on the podcast, Sophie was like, my God, you kidding me? I don't want to talk about what's gone wrong. I, know, I get it. I so sympathise with you with that, but what then convinced you, why is it important for us to talk about, you know, bit like failures and mistakes that have.

kept us in the industry. I'd say kept us in the industry and kept us going to keep us humble in a way, kind of thing. yeah, right. Those kind of mistakes keep us, in case you're humble, you're like, oh, I pulled that. Oh, maybe I'm not. Okay, I still have lots to learn.

Sophie Fell (23:17)
Yeah, Google definitely keeps you humble.

That's

Anu Adegbola (23:27)
That's that's literally why I don't call myself a PCC expert even though I've been doing it for a long time because I'm like, personally, and that's not to shame anyone who says they are a PCC expert, but I personally, will never feel comfortable calling myself that.

Sophie Fell (23:27)
that's literally why I don't call myself a PPC expert even though I've been doing it such a long time because I'm like, I personally and that's not to shame anyone who says they are a PPC expert, but I personally would never feel comfortable calling myself that because

Anu Adegbola (23:40)
because of the rate of evolution. And the reason I can't say I know all about AI max right now, because I don't. So I think it's important that we all have that, I suppose,

Sophie Fell (23:40)
of the rate of evolution. And for reasons like I can't say I know all about AI max right now because I don't, you know, so I think it's important that we all have that.

I suppose, yeah, I suppose again, humility to know that there's still more to learn. There's always more to do. There's always more things to try, more things to test. And I think it's easy to look up to

Anu Adegbola (23:55)
yeah, suppose, again, humility to know that there's still more to learn. There's always more to do. There's always more things to try, more things to test. And I think it's easy to look

Sophie Fell (24:06)
people that are on podcasts like this or are thought leaders or standing up in front of you at Brighton SEO or HeroCon, PBC Live or whatever and think, well, they've been doing it 10 years. It's easy. Or they've been doing it 20 years or 30 years, you know, and it's easy for them, but it's not.

Anu Adegbola (24:06)
people that are on podcasts like this or report leaders or standing up in front of you at Threaten SEO or Hearing Con, PBC Live or whatever and think, oh, well, they've been doing it 10 years, it's easy, or they've been doing it 20 years or 30 years. It's easy for them, it's not.

Sophie Fell (24:22)
you know, we're all in the same boat and the things I learned at the beginning of my career, most of them are completely not applicable now. I spoke about that

Anu Adegbola (24:22)
We're all in the same boat. And the things I learned at the beginning of my career, most of them are completely not applicable now. I spoke about that at...

Sophie Fell (24:31)
Hero Con last year as well. said, you know, I actually don't care if any of you have done this for 20 years or 30 years. It's probably what you've learned in the last three or four up to five years that really helps. So I think, again, yeah, humility is important, but also being willing to like evolve and grow and continue learning and not be stuck in

this is how it worked five years ago so this is how I'm going to run my campaigns. That doesn't work anymore.

Anu Adegbola (24:57)
So yeah, so another thing is why I'm very delighted that it's like head of paid media teams or, you know, leads, we've even had Navah Hopkins, who's the ads liaison for Microsoft. Come on this podcast, share her biggest, you know, f-up is like, there are people looking up to you guys and, know, and that's even bring it even more closer. Like your team who are like, Oh, maybe Sophie never makes mistakes, but you know, they'll listen to this episode. I'll be like, okay, all right. No, she does. So.

I don't have to beat myself over the head if I make mistake. Why is that as someone who's a leader, mean, you might not call yourself an expert, but you're a leader. You lead, like that's, you without question. Why is it important for like managers and heads of departments to, you know, actually talk about the whole, okay, you'll make a mistake. This is how you deal with it.

especially like with the team members so that they don't feel a fear of failure, you know, as they're working.

Yeah, no, I think it's it's crucial because, know, again, as I said, we're all still learning. So again, whether I've got team members that have been in pay beer for two years or 15 years, we're all still on the same journey. And I think that's important again to remember.

Sophie Fell (25:59)
Yeah, no, I think it's it's crucial because, you know, again, as I said, we're all still learning. So again, whether I've got team members that have been paid me for two years or 15 years, we're all still on the same journey. And I think that's important again, to remember, I think,

you know, sometimes we're dealing with small budgets, sometimes we're dealing with big budgets and masses of data and things like that. And the thing to remember ultimately is we're all human.

Anu Adegbola (26:15)
sometimes we're with small budgets, sometimes we're dealing with big budgets and masses of data and things like that. The thing to remember ultimately is we're all human.

Sophie Fell (26:25)
You know, none of us have robots, luckily. You know, it's, it's, it is easy to make those mistakes. And again, especially with Google ads, Meta ads, LinkedIn ads, et cetera, there are

Anu Adegbola (26:26)
None of us are robots, luckily. It is easy to make those mistakes. And especially with Google Ads, Meta Ads, LinkedIn Ads, et cetera, there are.

Sophie Fell (26:36)
default settings, there are things that are easy to miss. And again, like you said, we can talk about it all we want. I can go on the whole country telling everyone to get the location settings, but a lot of the time you actually have to make that mistake

it work.

Anu Adegbola (26:48)
Really

kick in yes, Yeah.

Sophie Fell (26:52)
with overpacing right? mean I don't know many people that have never overpaced by accident

or you know spent too much budget etc and again it sucks of course it sucks that you don't feel good doing it and you have to apologize and hold your hands up etc but you'll never do it again you've done it once you will never make that mistake again so I think that you know that is what it's about

Anu Adegbola (27:07)
You'll never do it again. Yeah. You've done it once. You'll never make that mistake again. Yeah. So I think that, you know, that is what it's

about.

What's your tip for managers on how they approach this? Because I wouldn't say names, but generally I have been at an agency where, it wasn't someone that said to me, but somebody was junior in my team came to me and is like, Oh, this other manager, you know, I was.

I was saying that, oh yeah, mistakes happen. And the manager was like, no, not in this case. We don't make mistakes. And it was very like, I mean, it was, there were loads of reasons, but that guy did leave the agency and left the industry altogether. And like, what is, what's your tip for managers on how they deal with their juniors so that they don't, they don't feel so like, okay, I need to give up my career because I've made a mistake or.

I just, cause I feel that what it could really lead to as well is like someone who just never really tries or test things out of the boundaries. Like why is it important that we actually do have those kinds of conversations with your team just so that, you know, they, they're brave enough to make tests, even though mistakes might happen.

Yeah. think, I think that is important. And again, I've worked with Jews before and have been, like you said, very reluctant to try something new or test something or very like I'm thinking about.

Sophie Fell (28:18)
I think that is important. And again, I've worked with juniors before who have been, like you said, very reluctant to try something new or test something or a very like, I'm thinking about testing

broad match. What do you think? a very sort of put the onus on you to make that decision so that they can sort of absolve themselves from all sorts of abilities as well. There's like a bit of a balance there. But again, I think it's about having that. So like at Liberty, for example, our mottoes are being accountable, being curious and being brave.

Anu Adegbola (28:35)
Yeah, right. There's a bit of a balance there, but again, I think it's about having that, so like at Liberty, for example, our mottos are being accountable, being curious, and being brave.

Sophie Fell (28:48)
And I think those sorts of things are helpful, having those mantras of we

Anu Adegbola (28:48)
I think those sorts of things are helpful, having those mottos of...

We are innovative. test and we learn and we find things, you know, and having structures in place to support that. So whether it's a creative testing matrix and we can say, cool, we're going to this in this, you know, in isolation, we're going to spend £500 on it and we're going to see what happens. think having that.

Sophie Fell (28:53)
are innovative, we test and we learn and we find things, you know, and having structures in place to support that. So whether it's a creative testing matrix and we can say, cool, we're going to this in this, you know, in isolation, and we're going to spend 500 pounds on it we're going to see what happens. I think having that mentality behind it and sharing that with your team and encouraging them to think that way.

Anu Adegbola (29:11)
mentality behind it and sharing that with your team and encouraging them to think that way

helps, I don't think it's realistic for any manager or whatever industry you're in to say, you whatever makes mistakes. That's not true. It's just not the reality of any situation, whether you're a CMO or a junior, you know, everyone, everyone makes mistakes and I think it's unfair to punish people. Yeah, yeah, mistakes. Everyone makes

Sophie Fell (29:17)
helps honestly. I don't think it's realistic for any manager whatever industry you're in to say no one ever makes mistakes because that's not true it's just not the reality of any situation whether you're a CMO or a junior you know everyone everyone makes mistakes and I think it's unfair to punish people for that.

Anu Adegbola (29:40)
Everybody needs to listen

to that. I've got a very lovely virtual assistant right now and I need to remind myself because I'll see a mistake she's made. Anu behave yourself, don't fire her because she's made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes, we need to work through it and tell her what the mistake was and how we need to make that better. But yeah, because I find it difficult. So it's like doing this podcast as well is helping me keep my, know, like, Anu behave yourself as a good manager. need to.

Sophie Fell (29:51)
No!

Anu Adegbola (30:10)
allow mistakes to happen because that's how that's the best that's why how the best learnings happen. Also, if this has been such a great chat, we could chat for like much much longer than this. But yeah, this is the this is a nice like, know, ending for the podcast. But before we go one nice, you know, lovely like question that all my guests you know, so far, they really enjoyed this question. If your PPC career were a movie, what would the title be?

Sophie Fell (30:38)
So I will admit I chat GPT this for some inspo, I kept thinking things like Wolf of Wall Street and then like Titanic and I was like, no,

Anu Adegbola (30:39)
admit I chat GPT for some info. I kept thinking things like Wolf of Wall Street and then Titanic and I was like

Sophie Fell (30:48)
this isn't that.

Anu Adegbola (30:49)
Titanic? Let it not be

Titanic, please not Titanic. It has not hit an iceberg yet.

Sophie Fell (30:55)
No,

wood, not yet. So I asked ChatGPT for some inspo and they gave me a few but I quite liked this one. It's very cheesy, very, very cheesy. From CPC to MVP.

Wow. The saps, I'm here for it. And I was like, yes.

Anu Adegbola (31:08)
I it. I love it. Yes Yes, what what

do you think you are in the space that you feel you're in the MVP level stage already? Yeah

Sophie Fell (31:19)
⁓ no, I don't think so. I'm on that journey though. I'm on the journey.

Anu Adegbola (31:24)
Yeah,

that's amazing. That's that's a very good, you know, height for you to set for yourself Yeah on the journey of being an MVP. Honestly, I think you're already an MVP You're an MVP for joining us on this podcast for all the talks you do for writing your book and coming to all these events and sharing your knowledge. You're certainly our MVP here Sophie So genuinely, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and sharing your story and sharing all these learnings

Sophie Fell (31:33)
Yeah, I'm on my way.

Anu Adegbola (31:51)
from our site. Everyone makes mistakes guys. If you take nothing else from this episode, remember everyone makes mistakes. So managers, remember that to be for you as role models for your juniors, juniors, remember that making a mistake is not the end of the world. You can still grow from it as we all have. yeah, thank you so much Sophie for joining us today. Thank you for having me. My pleasure.

Sophie Fell (32:14)
Thank for having me. Thank you.

Anu Adegbola (32:17)
Thank you so much, Sophie, for sharing that very honest and transparent experience. Remember, you can never overcheck the settings for your campaigns, especially, even if it's not because you never know what you put live and your eyes are different pre and post the campaign launch, even for the fact that Google is always changing something, updating something, creating new defaults, changing how, settings are put on default.

always double check those settings before you can come, you're confident that that campaign is running as it should. Um, so yeah, for the information and the full transcript for that fantastic conversation, please go to podcast.ppc.live to get that, get, get the video, the audio, and listen to all, get all the details of what Sophie shared. PPC live event updates, always excited to share this one. Uh, we are, we're going to be meeting at strategiQ, Q.

Confirm how you say that specifically. But there are these guys whose offices are based by Liverpool Street. They are very lovely company and they are a company where the first season of Dragon's Den was shot. You know, that very infamous show that's really doing great and putting a lot of money in people's businesses and small businesses pockets, which is always really great to see.

So yeah, join us there. That's going to be on February the 5th. We've got fantastic speakers, Dave Alexander, Kat Sale, as well as ⁓ Ads Script master Nils Rooijmans, who is going to be joining us on the 5th of February. So yeah, please go to ppc.live for your early bird ticket sales. That's going to end in a couple of weeks. So you definitely want to get onto that very soon. By December 22nd. Yeah, ticket. There'll be full price. There'll be full price tickets and no sales.

No more sales for this event anyway. So yeah, please go to ppc.live for that to see whether the sale is still going on and still buy a ticket even if the sale is over, because it will be an amazing event to check out. Before I leave you, I'm also delighted to share that I'm taking on coaching clients. So yeah, if you go to themarketingannu.com, because you just go there just if you need help with, ⁓ you know, getting a new job, getting a promotion, trying to just

Take away the blocks and challenges that prevents you from going after that job that you want, going after that role that you really desire and just getting out of your head. Sometimes whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's like just lack of confidence or something like that, let me know, get in touch with me so that I can help you overcome those challenges so that you can ensure that you are on the career path that works for you. So yeah, just go to themarketinganu.com to book a ⁓ free consultation time.

a free discovery call that'll be 15 minutes that will then allow us to discuss what exactly you need. So yeah, I hope you have enjoyed the show and I look forward to bringing more PPC F-ups and Triumphs next week. Thank you, bye.